JPH

Howdy:

One of the Russian anvils I take it?? I got one a while back...had the same "problem" with the horn and a rough as a cob face but some angle grinder time solved both problems...

On the hooks..I always used two pair of scrolling pliers...Never had a problem.


JPH

As for the "fold/weld"...yes it has to be re-welded or else it will stay in seperate sections. However I do NOT fold..takes to long..rather I cut into 3 or more pieces (usually 4) and work that way. When you consider my first weld is usually between 35 and 50 pices, I am ready to pattern after the second welding course.

JPH

Chuck:

Well by the sounds of it, you must of did something right as far as thermal treatment. These carbon steels can really perform once you know what they need to do it.


Ray: Appology not needed. If you can get ahold of any of the old (and new) Machinist's Handbooks there will be ALOT of info in there but you better have decent eyesight cause the print is TINY. The is so much to learn about doing this that it is hard to find a place to start from. Knowing what a steel does and needs is probably one of the better places to start.

If you need anything, drop me a line...

JPH

Chuck:

52100 would be my guess on those ball bearings. I'd say that 99% of the time that is what they are. I have played about with the stuff a bit, but I am pretty well set on the 10xx series, the 51xx series and the 92xx series and a few others like M-2, L-6 and the old Vascowear (when I am feeling self abusive). I know these steels inside and out and well, they do all that I want from a blade steel. Still it is fun to mess about with different stuff every now and then. What did you harden it in??

Ya know alot of folks don't realize how badly you can screw up a steel with improper forging. If you don't know the proper temp ranges you can really mess yourself up. Still these folks believe that simply because a blade is forged that it makes it that much better. Sad to say that is not the case. Thermal treatment is what really makes the difference between forged and just ground. Now PROPER forging coupled with the PROPER thermal treatment, there is where you get the performance differences.

Sounds like you done it right with you little shiv there. At 1/8" or so thick that should flex no problem and hold together.

Ray: After the bruhaha last time I would rather not recommend any books. Seems some thin skinned folks raised a ungodly stink last time and I do not care to have that repeated...

Ed: Ya know..you sure ruined my fun...rained on the parade...all that other stuff. I was kinda enjoying the fact that RP was a neophyte and all. Yet another mind to corrupt. Well he would of found out sooner or later but I wasn't going to tell him. Whahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!


Anyway I am back to gimping around...

JPH

RP:

As to the question on water hard steels...these are usually preceeded with the letter "W" as in Water. Also you can use WHC and well as 1045/1050. Anything over 1055 I would NOT suggest hardening in water, even thought the mill specs say 10xx series steels are "water hardening".. the mills don't factor in blade cross sections for some reason.

Now I wouldn't use plain water. When I work a water hard steel I harden in my caust blue tank at 285F. This tends to shock the steel alot less and makes a very nice hardening quench. Right after the blade is hardened I temper immediately.

Since you do not seem to be all that familiar with the various steels I suggest you read all you can on this. In the mean time, in a nut shell you have:

Water hardening steel, these are the W and the lower 10xx series

Oil Hardening steel, these are the higher 10xx series, O-1, L-6 and a host of others.

Air hardening steels like A-2, D-2, M-2..alot of high alloy steels here. If you know how to work these, these make excelent blades.

Percipitation hardening steels (really weird materials) like 17-4 PH...

The mill specs for hardening are really easy to read actually and knowing what hardens in what can really save you some heartache.

If you get stuck, drop me a line and I should be able to help ya out a bit...

JPH

Ray:

From somebody who's done this a little while...

There are serious problems that arise with the way you said you did that spear head. It's not the temperature that you worked it at, it is the fact that you water quenched a oil hardening steel. That will crack the steel 999 times out of 1000.

Add the fact that you are using a recycled leaf spring, something that you have no idea as to its condition, you are setting yourself up for failure. Used leaf spring can be decent but I would rather not use them for anything with my name on it! They can have micro-cracks and a host of other problems that can cause you heartache.

On the forging temps. On a "high performance" piece I will work UNDER the transition tempo for that particular alloy. granted I am working harder than most but I feel the end product is better for not having to worry about grain enlargement. Couple this with proper thermal treatment and you get a very good blade.

On other stuff like PW materials...I tend to start working at a welding heat right after I do the last weld in the course. I will work the piece under my LG until it is a solid cherry red and then it goes back in the forge to get hot and the process starts all over again.

Now for what you are doing I would comfortably say work hotter...a bright cherry up to a yellow would be ok for the heavy forming. Coil springs are usually 9260 and I have played around alot with that steel lately and it is a good steel for "impact" uses. Here again though, using a recycled material you run the chance of having problems due to the condition of the material.

Anyway what ever you do use an oil quench not water!!

hope this helps..

JPH

Hello:

I have cost wise about $35.00 and change in my "average" sword. Blued steel and wire wrapped grips a few dollars more. I sell all I can make at around $650.00 or so. It takes me about 4 1/2 hours to make a sword. A little longer for blued steel...the bluing takes aout 1 1/2 hours, but that is time in the soup, so I am more or less free to do other things while it cooks.

I am not rich but I am comfortable. I do not need to advertise, folks hunt me down...Granted I have been doing this close to 40 years now so...someone just starting out will have a lot rougher time of it.

All comes down to the work itself I guess. Good work pays, shoddy work does not...

JPH

Hello:

< I guess I should have been more clear but I was refering to using banding material , cable , chains etc where at best its a guess as to what the contents of the material really is. >

Ok given these parameters, they is no way. Here you are talking about using "lower end grade" recycled materials and well, you are getting the "wow" factor by doing this. While some of the items you mentioned can make a decent blade, you will not get the perfomance level above what that particular material is. In fact, if you aren't careful you could suck so much C out into the atmosphere working it into a usable "solid" that you could ruin the whole thing.

On the cable. I buy mine direct from Otis Elevator, I KNOW what it is cause they get melt specs on the cable. They have to know what they are getting cause people's lives are on the line. I use the XXX Improved plow steel...aka 1095. But a welded cable knife, just like one using motorcycle or engine chains, banding, saw blades or anything else, here you get the "novelty" of it..

Xxxx's bells... I am even "guilty" of doing this when I use siderite. Does a extra-terrestrial piece of iron with some nickel thown in make a decent knife? No but it sure is unique to have a knife with a chunk of it in there. the "wow" factor again.


As far as the control you mentioned, that is not that difficult. Not at all. There are a few of us "out there" that have advanced degrees in metallurgy, material science, engineering and the like. The amount of control needed is easily obtained using not much more than a forge and an anvil. Sometimes air tight containers are employed for the really "exotic" stuff but most of the work comes down to knowledge, skill and experience on the grip of the hammer.

Using high qaulity materials, properly employed and treated will make a better blade in terms of cutting and holding together. Using scrap materials, well, here's on step lower on the scale from the start if you ask me. While I have suggested using a few recycled materials in the past while you are learning, once you get the skills mastered, move up to the "good stuff"..and believe me you will see the difference.

In regards to your concern about getting hammered? Not with me around you won't. You asked a good, solid question and you have, if you asked me..gotten a couple of decent answers. If others can't take being questioned, they should be in a different line of work. Personally I have no problems with folks asking solid questions and believe me I have had some really dumb ones asked as well...the folks things say will never cease to amaze you...But your question? yours was one that hasn't been asked that often, but is one that needs to an answered. Don't worry about getting hammered..won't happen here..

One last thing...I have been doing this now for a little while. I have picked up a few things. If I sound like I know what I am talking about, that's OK, but no one knows it all. Some folks know more about this stuff, some folks know a bit less but all of us know something useful. Everyone has something they can teach and everyopne has something they can learn..In other words I am not above stealing an idea on how to do something..hehhehehehee

Hope this helps

JPH


Words edited by Moderator

Hello:

Well, sit down this is might be a long post.

On pattern welding, this all depends upon the skill and knowledge of the one doing it and the methods and materials employed. On a laminate bar (what I mean is one that is just stacked/folded or one that is twisted to get a pattern) if you use the PROPER alloys you will get superior cutting IF your heat treating is dead on (I will explain alloys further down..) and you do everything right. But you must know your materials.

Now where pattern welding really beats a homogenous steel is when you do it the "right way" and that is very similar to the way the sword and knives were made in pre-1000AD Europe and that is using a built or composite method of construction. Here again your thermal treatment must be dead on (as it always should be by the way) and you must use the right materials.

What I mean by a built/composite blade is where you use severeal different steels, relying upon each one's "strengths" to back up each one's "weaknesses".. Here you can weld up a super hard edge material to a body of softer and tougher steels and have the thing hold together under tremendous strains during use.

There are many theories as to why these blades were made this way in period and well, my own is the fact that in addition to the above, the amounts of real steel, when compared to iron were rather small percentage wise due to the time needed to make shear steel from bloom iron. So they used the bloom iron (wrought iron actually) for the body and the steel for the places where a hard edge is required.

Pattern welding was used in nearly every iron working culture at one time or another. It is a logical progression in iron working evolution.

Now, as far as alloys and thermal treatment, well the maker must understand both of these intimately, you can't simply "slap a couple of pieces together" and expect it to cut any better than a homogenous piece of steel. Here is where knowledge comes in (a lot of makers don't understand this for some reason, or if they do they don't care) as far as what alloy does what best.

Side note: understanding a "cut" is needed here. If you look at the "traditional understanding" of the "saw tooth" effect of pattern welding and when you understand that carbon migration does occur, you will realise that using a high carbon/low carbon mix in a laminate is like making really expensive 1060. NOT my idea of a good blade, especially in a laminate pattern like a ladder, maiden's hair or any other "one piece" pattern. What I mean buy the "saw tooth" effect is where the "softer" material "wears away" under use faster than the harder material, thereby leaving the saw "teeth" of the harder material to cut it's way through. You will not get this effect using a simple high/low C mix of steels due to the carbon migration. You can get it using steels of different alloy elements as well as getting a greater degree of "toughness"..

Now to do this you have to reralise what a given element does in a steel. Using a mix of 1095 and say the old Vasco-wear will give a blade that will start to "out cut" a plain Vasco wear blade once the 1095 has abraded down a bit from use. The "saw tooth" effect. This is for a one piece laminate pattern, not what I would call the best way to make a blade if you are pattern welding for performance if you ask me.

Now where pattern welding really "shines" is using a built/composite pattern/ This is where you have a 'body' made of a very tough and/or "springy' material ands a cutting edge of a very hard and/or wear resistant material. This harder material could be a homonegous alloy or another piece of pattern weld. The idea here is for the "tougher and softer" body will "back up" the harder and not as tough edging.

I have done destructive tests on blade built this way side by side with homogenous blades (almost broke my heart to do it but it needed to be done) and every time the homogenous blade failed way before the built one finally let go and I was rather brutal to say the least in what i put these things through.

Now I will say that 90% of the makers making pattern welded materials, like I said before, aren't choosing the materials or construction methods for the cutting effects but rather for contrast. I personally do not believe that a sword should be made in any other way, as far as pattern welding goes, than a composite method of construction.

Additional note: as with any other piece of hardenable steel, the maker must know how to properly heat treat the materials. Thermal treatment is the most important part of making any blade. It doesn't matter if the blade is homogenous, pattern welded, ground or forged, if the thermal treatment is bad, then the blade is.

I will probbaly get crucified by what I just wrote by alot of makers but I stand by what I said and well, if you think it through and understand my attempt to convey what I am trying to explain, I am sure you will see things in a new light. If not, well, that's ok too.

Hope this helps..

JPH

Must be getting older....can't remeber how to post a photo..

HELP!!

JPH

does setting your face on fire count?? I did that once, back when I actually HAD hair.(.I think like 1988.)....that was an "experience"...other than that just a smoldering shop cloth every now and then.

Although there was that one time I got some hot welding slag up inside my nose...it burned a bit..but the really uncomfortable part was the sizzling feeling of my sinuses getting cooked...

JPH

Gee I welded up all sorts of stuff from old buckets to AK-47 and M-16 barrels to pry bars to even a few revolver frames. Chains, screen, all sorts of stuff..Some worked some didn't.

JPH