forgemaster

And you wonder why the railways dont exist in the form that they used to?  All to do with the new management style.

Sorry I read 5cwt but I thought you meant Clear Space, and I am looking for my little massey steam hammer book but havent found it yet.  Stay tuned.

Anvil about 3 ton hammer about 5 ton, where from Andrew? (I dont want to buy it or undercut you, I already own 2 dont forget).

could'nt nswgr afford liquid paper

Hey Woody

Can we get video of where you are trying to get the stop lever and control handle to sit while trying to get the hammer to go into auto hold up (low pressure), the table you sat the camera on was obscuring all of that in your last video,

Cheers

Phil

Hey Andrew

Seeing as you have seem to have access to these sort of files, do you want to see if you can find a article called Bye bye blacksmith it was shown on ABC and is still in their archives, It was shown on 1st May 1982 on 4 corners, reporter name was John Temple, segment ID is 316410.  I have been meaning to buy it from ABC for years but have not got around to it.  It deals with the role technology has in the down skilling of the workforce, in this case the introduction of multibarrel cross carriage profile cutters hastening a loss of blacksmithing skills in the railways workshops.

Oh yeh we still have a steam hammer in the workshop, but it has not run since we installed the 5cwt massey, if needed it would take about a weeks work to get the steam hammer working again, (boiler washout, bit of pipe repair (rust has taken its toll on some of the steam traps) re connecting the boiler to the oil tank)

Phil

Good stuff Andrew, the press gang could have all been put out to pasture with the purchase of a good electric manipulator.  I watch that and I see how with a bit of inovation that job could have been so much easier, eg a peg to stop the job rolling off the bottom block.  Little things like that, that come with something called experience and watching and learning how other blokes do things, and paying attention to the good stuff that other tradesmen come up with to do the job, and being flexible enough to change your way of working once you realise there is a better way to do it.

See you on the weekend

Phil

Going by the short heading that you see I thought, cool someones made a hammer and anvil trailer, this I gotta see,

You have to remember that this is a world wide forum, I'm in Richmond Vale NSW Australia, so I would'nt have a clue what DFW is, and don't forget that there are a lot of place names duplicated the world over, so it is nice if you at least put your state, territory or country in for us.

Phil

Guys, I need the honest opinion of everyone that's going to the dinner on the following subject:

 

-Would it matter to you guys if i came to the dinner?

 

I want you all to know that I am 15, but I am pretty mature and have a good sense of humour.

 

Basically i want to know if you guys mind having a youngster around? I would really like your Honest opinion on this, don't be nice, just tell me the truth.

 

Thanks guys

 

Jakob

Hi Jakob

If you are 15 and interested in blacksmithing we will welcome you with open arms,  Xxxx I'm 47 going on 13 so I'm only a youngn, tell your mum we will look after you and make sure you stay on the straight and narrow.  Billy (Will Maguire) started pestering me for an apprenticeship when he was 16, and he still talks to me, so I cant see 15 being a problem.

If your parents want to phone me to talk to me that would be OK by me.  I'll PM you my number in case they want to just check I'm not some sort of criminal.  And I'd be the worst one of the bunch of guys going to dinner.

Phil

Phil

Do any smiths working there come on here at all?
Might try and give them a call and see if they like visitors. From the outside of their building you would not know what they do. Be handy if they let me play only 2 min down the road

I'll give you the number of a guy to call, he's the leading hand on the 40cwt, Mr Starling. That way you can at least get a foot in the door without having to talk to the idiots in the office.  I'll PM it to you.

Mate I would be doing the dinner but the misses has me going to a party that night down in cronulla so ill have to skip it.

I am sure there will be enough time over the 2 days to network and spin a yarn with people.

Looks like a lot of Sydney locals are starting to come out of the wood work on this one, who knows I may even find another smith on the Central coast lol

Seems like there is a few in Newcastle which is only an hour from me which is nice, hoping to try and find some time to pop up to your shop Forgemaster and see how the professionals are doing it, just got to workout my family life a bit lol.

Looking forward to this event and meeting some people

Blacksmiths in Gosford, look up CGC Kymon, they are blacksmiths, as far as I know they have the only 2 ton (yes 2 ton) massey hammer in Aust, and thats as big as massey clear space go.

Aceman send an email to stokey1@bigpond.com (that is Nigel) to let him know that you are coming, and I'm trying to organise a ride for you with a guy that lives in the Blue Mountains.

Cheers

Phil

Just spoke to Billy about your question Aceman, he said mainly to just let Nigel know that you are coming so he knows No,s he feels it wil be OK to pay on the day, I'll dig out Nigels email today.

Hey Aceman

We will make sure that you get to the train Ok, I'll give Jimmy a call see if he is going, maybe you could ride with him to St Marys that way its only a short train ride.

If you want to shoot me an email to forgemasters@optusnet.com.au and send me your phone no etc then I'll text you mine, that way I can make sure that you get in safe and back home safe.

Phil

Drewy Androo, Yeh guys, a shank hook, that one is about 25 ton MS, one of the last ones that Dumbrell bent (I took that photo while sitting on the starter switch driving with my foot).  Only Difference is we are going to bend it under the hammer, something I have never done before so I am the lacky and Moon is the master, I have only bent them in a horizontal press.  We are looking at about 10 ton, that will be 3 7/8 dia for the body so should give us something to get our teeth into.  We are having a practice this weekend in my shop, should be fun.

Sorry to hijack this tong/hook bending thread all you other guys

Its going to depend on what sort of sizes you have at your disposal, from the vid it looks like it is a fairly heavy rectangle section, can you get spring steel in that section, or are you going to have to forge it down from something else, I dont know what sort of equipment you have but I guess you'll need a powerhammer of some sort.  I like how you said, theres not much in it just get the shape right and heat treat it, that last part is going to be the bit you need some skill for, heat treating it.  Do you have a quench tub to quench the whole thing in, in oil.  How are you going to heat it all up to quench it in one go, how will you temper it all over?

If you forge out a bit of stock to the right size make sure you do not have any sharp corners on it when you finish, put the stock up on its corners in the final heat and give it a run on the corners under the hammer to break those sharp edges as those sharp edges are where the cracks will start from.

If you have trouble getting 5160 big enough I would use 4340 or even 4140 as a substitute, just make sure the HT is right for the application.

You can bend any size hook you wish, you just need to have it hot, and have the right tools.

Hi Micheal

Not saying your example is wrong, just that was the way I was given by my air comp guru to work out consumption.  Really, I would expect it all to come back to a rule of thumb, as in the rule of thumb for steam boiler capacity was given to me as, falling weight of hammer in CWT x 10 = rated boiler horsepower therefore if you have a 5cwt hammer (1/4 ton) you will need a 50 horsepower boiler, this figure you can also cross reference to Kilowatts or what ever measurement is used in the country you live in.

Will your hammers run as automatic blow as standard, or do they have to be driven, ie one stroke of the lever for one blow of the hammer.

There is also a lot of come and go on calcs for a given hammer with regards to the condition of the rings, bore, valves etc.

Cheers

Phil

Ok I have found from watching vids of steam/air hammers in the US that they normally have 2 levers to control the hammer, and they require a convoluted procedure of wanggling both levers to a fro to operate the hammer, where as the ones we have in Aus (that have almost all been built in GB or are copies of GB produced hammers) that I have seen (and also the pickys I have seen of any UK hammers) and all the ones I have driven or forged under only have one lever (to control the hammer) and then a lever, etc going to the stop valve on the pipe supplying stream/air.  To operate ours you basically turn on the steam, and then get into it by driving with the one lever, if you want to get a softer more elastic blow you can if you desire, throttle the steam back somewhat on the stopvalve, but its sort of a set and forget control. 

So I'm wondering if the USA hammers have dropped onto something different, or did the Poms just make it simpler and therefore easier to use.  What are the advantages of the 2 levers (as I can see it none) and why do they have them when the Pommy hammers have only one control handle (and I'm talking about manual control here not automatic blows).

To work out the CFM, calculate the volume of the piston (piston area x stroke) x 2 (to allow for up and down) x the amount of blows per minute, (work on about 100 to 120 BPM), then allow for a bit of non working time, say 75% out of every 10 minutes is work, the rest is holding up, holding down or at rest, (neutral)  so for an example you have a 8" bore 8x8x.78 = 49.92" x stroke at say 16" = 798.72" x 2 = 1597.44 cubic inches of air needed per stroke x 100 BPM = 159744 cubic inches of air needed for 1 minutes running at 100 blows per minute. convert that to cubic feet = 92.44 cubic feet of air per minute, (dont forget that is air at about a minumum of 40PSI) less the 25% the hammer is not running = 69.33 cubic feet of air per minute.

Yes I know that I have not allowed for the volume the rod takes up on the up stroke, and I know that I have not allowed for any leaks or bad valve faces causing blow by, and yes I know that the hammer does not have to fully fill the cylinder every stroke, bit is better to err on the side of too much air than not enough.

To arrive at a CFM of free air delivered by an air compressor as opposed to air at say 90PSI you will have to allow a conversion figure. The figure I was given by my air compressor guru was 8:1 for 100 psi (that is free air delivered to air at pressure).  So multiply 70cfm by 8 = 560cfm.

As a practical example we have a 3cwt steam hammer in our workshop, an old 125cfm diesel air compressor would run it for about 1.5 minutes before it emptied the tanks, and we had big additional res capacity piped in too.  Using a modern 250 CFM diesel air compressor would keep up with it though, although the pressure would drop to 60psi, but you could at least keep forging.

Having a big resevoir helps but you still have to pump the res up each time, yes you can run the hammer for longer, but it takes longer for the air comp to catch up.

Hope this helps.

Phil

No keep it here Andrew, it will keep bumping "get hammered at moonies" the top anyway, and pretty well most people going to Moonies are going to FIJ.  Yeh, andrew "your" "crew" and yes I do think it is members only?

Three weeks!!!!! moon and I were going to have a go at making a hook here at work, just to practice so as to speak, and we needed to have a look at guidos to see what he had on the way of lifting equipment over that 7cwt hammer.  Time just flys.

We used to be able to get a grade here in Oz known as weldex, it was very easy to fire weld, forged like it was butter.  Had very low carbon in it, but was a quality steel all the same,  It used to be used for aplications such as lifting gear, chains, rings, boiler components, boiler stay bolts.  It had the ability that it would stretch or bend a fair way before it would break.  Basically it was I think was manufactured as a replacement for wrought when wrought was getting hard to source, but specs still called for a steel with the properties of wrought.  I still have a few 2"dia bars of it, if I have to do a fire welding demo for someone/group, I'll forge a little up beforehand, then use it, as I know it will weld with no problems.