bigfootnampa

Interesting work! The rasp tooth pattern adds interest. I am guessing that you must have ground it off in the areas where you made the forge welds... am I correct? Nice looking material. Do you find it to have enough carbon to make a decent edge? I have been told that such rasps are often only case hardened and not very good steel all the way through... I know that this may not always be true though. I understand that shoers who work with race horses tend to use pretty high grade tools in general.

One thing I might suggest is that I have found that old rotary mower blades are usually pretty good steel and many of the riding mower blades are nice heavy material... they would be a good and cheap source of steel that you could weld in for the blades. I have used some of them to make nice wood carving gouges and they work extremely well indeed! Shops will often save them for you if you get to know the right people and bring them a smith made item once in a while.

Rotate your dies to the opposite orientation. I had to do the same thing on my 20 pound model. It is pretty easy to do. You could also rotate the stock 180 degrees which will even out the curvature. I often do that for smaller jobs to save time. I would hardly consider this a design flaw, though it might be possible to improve the design somehow it is certainly not much of a limitation.

Pecan works for hammer handles? That's one thing we do have lots of here in AZ.

SURE, pecan is in the hickory family (which is pretty SUPER handle wood). Lots of lumberyards sell a strange wood called pecan/hickory (which just means they can't tell the difference). It would be hard to find a nicer wood for handles in North America.

Oh yeah! Good thinking Bob! That is another approach that might be useful. Basically the spindles are mounted around the edges of two discs of plywood and the ply mounted on centers and all turned at once. It tends to get you more squarish parts than oval (depending on the diameter of the discs and how many pieces are turned at once) but roughs out very fast and the corners can be rounded by sanding on the lathe or in many other ways. I think I've heard that called barrel turning but I am not sure. I've done it many years ago for some artsy projects I worked on where I needed some neat looking identical parts.

Here's a thought about a more practical approach. What if you made a metal center system that provided three centers while only requiring one on the actual wood? Using sort of an intermediate attachment that converted the one center on the wood to three by simply switching pegs between the lathe centers and the three center adapter. That would make the switches repeatable and fast. You could use such an attachment on one end only for an oval/round handle or on each end for a fully ovate handle (could even hybridize by using a different ratio on the two ends to get something between). I think that I have seen some simple commercial adapters that worked sort of like this. The old Shopsmiths could do it by offsetting the tailstock which was set in an offcenter hole in a round insert. They didn't have a setup to work for the other end though (BTW they were TERRIBLE lathes... I started out on one of them... was shocked when I finally got a decent one and saw how easy it could be!!).

Thanks for the reply Bigfoot. I can see why a shaving horse and drawknife would be faster. That is why I want a handle lathe, a dozen handles an hour instead of an afternoon. I am willing to build it myself, but I can't remember how the mechanism for the oval shape worked. Thanks anyway.

ALLRIGHT, but remember that YOU asked for this. Here's a link to a video of one oval turning attachment (the VOD/Vicmarc Oval Device).
http://www.vicmarc.com/default.asp?contentID=689

I've just gotta say that I think that by the time you get one of these set up and working I could have made a LIFETIME supply of handles for myself and my son. By the time you earn enough to pay for it I'd guess that I could also have made lifetime handle supplies for most of my extended family. By the time you could make one yourself I'd fully expect to have USED UP my personal lifetime supply of handles. But far be it for me to discourage a fellow craftsman in search of FUN (I just think there are ways to have MORE of it... FUN that is).

Bob, have you ever seen a handle lathe? I realize from reading your post that you likely make handles by hand, but I have an interest in an old fashioned handle lathe. Many years ago on a different forum Frosty gave me a link to one, but my computer or ISP at the time couldn't connect to it. Many of my tools are handled at this time, and I have buckets of handles, but my son is just coming of age and I want to set him up as well as possible, if his interest takes off. Thanks.

You can turn handles on any wood lathe. If you want an oval shape you just use three different centers. It is also possible to turn round on one end and oval at the other end (you simply use the three center system on one end and a single center on the other end). I have to tell you, though, that if you have a shaving horse and drawknife and a 10" surform half-round file (use it mostly drawfiling) you can turn out at least a dozen handles in a pleasant afternoon. You'll produce enough shavings to start dozens of forge fires too. Unless you are very skilled at the lathe you'll have a tough time producing them as swiftly that way. I can do either but I prefer to use the shaving horse. I like both the process and the product from the horse better than lathe turned handles. BTW I just got off the horse a few minutes ago, I'm making bars for a dog-exclusion gate. Here is a link to one tutorial on the three center oval turning system.
http://syzygypens.com/blog/2009/07/27/turn-a-wooden-mallet-with-an-oval-handle/

I make a side hardy, is that what you mean? Plumb on one side, all the bevel on the other.

Grant, as Mike Aspery has described in old posts, he uses a slightly dulled corner for butchering. The bevel side is also fairly blunt and a bit longer than you'd typically use on a hardy... the idea apparently being to create enough space to separate the butchered out part... 3/16 inch or so so that the shoulder is not squeezing back into the main mass as you forge it out (also leaves a bit of room for a peen to reach in if needed).

A straight edge is OK but I have also seen the edge made concave so the corners of the forging are slightly rounded (I hope that explanation makes sense).

That does make sense to me. I can see how that might work. I don't know if I can find Otto's book but I will check online for it, thank you both for your input.

Another thought on the concave design... I can see that being VERY useful if you were butchering out round tenons.

While I wouldn't want to discourage you from forge welding your sockets I would like to make the point that it is not at all necessary. I make extremely HEAVY DUTY trowels from old mower blades and my (unwelded) sockets are NOT the weakest point. It is really simpler to just keep slightly thicker walls on your sockets and forego the welding... the tubelike geometry imparts more than adequate strength. This is true for chisels, spears and most all types of socketed tools and weaponry. I use a cone mandrel in my vise to true up the sockets but you can get a pretty good job just curling in the step of your anvil and gently tapping the socket closed... the cone gives me a way to reopen any areas that squeeze in too tightly and so makes things easier and faster. You could taper a large rod and clamp it in your vise to do the same job (only light tapping is needed to true up the sockets). You really need your cone or tapered rod to be of the same taper as you desire for the sockets, though it would be possible to use one with a longer taper.

I would like to relate this thread to the "Make A Hot Cut Hardy" thread below as these two tools are very similarly made. It does seem to me though that a butcher hardy ought to usually have a pretty straight across edge as I might often want to use it to butcher tenons and the like. I don't currently have a butcher hardy and have used my anvil corners to do this job, but it seems to me that I could do cleaner quicker work with a proper butcher hardy and so it is on my list of things to make. Besides tenon work I have other uses in mind... like when I make a Christopher cross pendant I like to turn an eye with the excess metal on the top leg... if this is not butchered cleanly you'll get undesirable rounding of the top of the cross. In my imagination, the butcher hardy makes this transition easy to do. I am interested in any details that any of you might want to share about the nuances of design and methods of forging such a tool. I have developed a few items that I create which are of extremely high quality levels and my aim is to expand my repertoire at that level and maybe have some fun and learn a few NEW tricks along the way. This is my way of saying that I am NOT looking for a "it'll get you by... till" type solution. I want a quality tool that I can use to do UPGRADED work.

I always wear safety glasses yet I have sometimes been regarded as a bit of a pest at my eye surgeons office. I have several of those rust rings but they seem to fade over the years (my eyes keep needing stronger glasses though). What can you do? I have worn face shields too and they do help but are SOO uncomfortable! I am getting old enough to be glad that I used my eyes and happy that I was lucky and careful enough to keep them working reasonably well all these years. A tiny piece of scale sneaked up under the lenses just a couple of weeks ago and sizzled out in my eye but only minor discomfort resulted. My glasses are pitted with the spatter of hot scale though and I hate to think what my eyes would be like without the glasses!

I have tried the salt deal and I do NOT like it... too corrosive. I made a little ice axe from a piece of rebar and turned a hook on the other end of it. I can knock a hole in the ice with it most days and work away. On colder days I chop a hole in the center of the ice and use the hook end to lift it out of the bucket. If it's cold enough to freeze solid I like to pour the bucket out and take it in with me and then I bring a fresh bucketful when I come out to forge again. I could put a heater in it but it's way overkill for how little water I use. "Ice Nurr" (my rebar axe) was fun to make and I kinda look forward to days when he gets a little work! I use him for the horses water buckets and troughs too when the weather allows (sometimes even WITH a heater it takes daily effort to keep them in water).

Bois d'arc is Osage orange and nice handle material. Walnut is a bit weak and brittle for tomahawk handles. Ash is a fine wood for most types of handles, I have used it for forging hammer handles and not much gets tougher use than that... those handles are in daily use for years now with no problems. Hickory or pecan (close hickory relative) are about as tough for handle material as you'll get but many oaks, elms (especially hackberry), locusts, and others will also work well. Hard springy woods are good, brittle or soft woods not as good for tough uses. Maples tend to be slightly more brittle and stiff than ideal but are often hard and strong enough to serve well anyway.

For small screw holes I have found that a simple square tipped awl of the proper taper will work well. Mostly this kind of tool is used for starting small screws anyway so this solution is pretty effective and makes resharpening fairly easy. Good hard steel and a taper filed to good sharp corners makes a quick solution that is elegant and works well. Something like a spear point drill would work for larger holes but it gets tiresome making those by hand... so the power drill usually goes to work on those.

I can see how it might work nicely on cherry... although it seems superfluous as cherry will get pretty dark on it's own if you let it see some sunlight. When I carve cherry spoons I coat them with walnut oil and use the truck dash to sunbake them for a few days and then recoat and rebake... in a month or so they get awesome color with no chemicals or dyes at all (only works with the heartwood though).

I don't know what you were taught but I like to have about 1 1/2 times the rivet diameter extending beyond my join for making the rivet head. Just a bit more for small rivets and maybe a little less for large ones. It depends a bit on what kind of heads you want but upsetting much more material than this becomes difficult... especially in smaller diameters.

I do this by using a punch that is about 3/16" square on the tip ground to a shallow pyramid shape at the point and tapered. I punch the hole using a slightly oversize round bolster and just punch clear through. Then I flip the material and use my angle grinder and flap wheel to grind the plug and rough edges off and quickly back to the anvil to hammer the punched area flat again. If the hole is to be rough and not too big I will just use the tapered punch to drift it as I punch the holes but I get a nicer finish by reheating and drifting (after the grinding/reflattening steps). This goes quite swiftly with a bit of practice. I use this method to create square holes for my handmade nails in angle, flattened hook ends and straps.

This method leaves you with a hole that is slightly "dipped" or countersunk from the topside but that is fine for my applications and it is simple and FAST.

Matt would not balance be associated with placement of the eye to the center of mass and NOT shape of one end?

Glenn; the dynamic balance of the hammer is affected by the shape of BOTH ends. When the hammer edge is used the hammer is tilted and a long bodied hammer will now have it's center of mass shifted to one side creating a twisting torque when the hammer strikes the metal. With a shorter bodied hammer this twisting torque is minimized as the center of mass is not misaligned (in relation to the striking point) nearly as much. This is a very important difference when using a hammer in the Hofi manner. Personally I find it very efficient to use my hammer in this way... only a slight shift in the way I hold or swing my hammer alters the effects of my strike and swiftly shapes the metal in the image I desire. Mr. Hofi has often stated that his students can use heavier hammers with his techniques but I have found that I prefer a lighter hammer for most purposes... I use one of about 1 1/2 pounds much more than any other (I do have a small power hammer which serves for most heavy drawing purposes). My favorite hammer BTW is not a Hofi hammer, I reforged it from an old scruffy hammer that I bought at a BAM conference... it does have a similar shape and balance to the Hofi hammers though (and also shares some of the traits of the Haberman hammers from which the Hofi hammers are descended). Since I have no hammers of my own for sale at this point I usually reccommend Mr Hofi's as they are about the best available (IMO) and His videos on their use are also invaluable. I am also impressed with Nathan's Jackpine hammers but I like Mr. Hofi's even better.

I thought you were retired Grant! Just giving you a hard time... I really don't believe in retirement either. I'd as soon burn out as rust out myself. You are always thinking aren'tcha?

If you dress your hammer face with nicely radiused corners you can use it for most drawing/shaping operations and the more rarely used peen can be of most any type. I prefer a short-faced mass centered hammer of the Hofi type because you can hit with the sides as well as the top/bottom of the face without introducing much torque. Come to think of it a Hofi hammer is an excellent choice! I really need my peen mostly for areas where I have tight clearance and the full head might not reach easily. Otherwise rotate the hammer handle 45 degrees in my grip and I have a straight peen effect... raise my hand so that the hammer handle tilts downward and I have the cross peen effect. Come to think of it I do use my peen when texturing quite a bit too... such as when veining leaves... but I think any type would serve with slight adjustments of technique (mine is straight).

Gee thanks Phil. Nice info! I will try that.

Being that you are a smith Glenn, if I were you I'd forge new hooks. Just too much to worry about with ones that have been overloaded and damaged. It's not that hard to do. 4140 or something with even a little more carbon would be good.

Loaning tools is a pain! I do it rarely and reluctantly (I am usually sorry afterwards too). It is real amazing how careless people can be with other peoples tools. If they were responsible people they would have their own tools.

As previously mentioned they are tough stuff... a power hammer is the best "trick" for forging them. They make tough tools though and I like them a lot. Chisels, punches, drifts, hardies, and small hammers are good things to make of them.

Since this thread has been revived I will give an update on my personal nailmaking progress. I have broken some of my earliest headers, possibly because I have developed a liking for large headed nails. I am now using heavy leaf springs for my latest (replacement) headers.

I have become a bit faster though nowhere near doing nails in a single heat or at nail-a-minute speed. I am okay with that as the quality is my main motivation.

I do some nails with very large decorative heads (rustic shaped as I like them).

I often make them to specific lengths for the immediate intended application.

I have begun to make some of them from higher carbon steels (old hay-rake tines) for better stiffness (I just leave them as-forged HT wise).

A significant advance has been achieved by learning to make a hinged cut on the hardy when cutting the nail for heading (I cut from only two [opposite] sides and fold the nail 90 degrees to reheat for heading). This is quicker and easier than cutting on all four sides and leaving a central stem.

When I have to clench nails, I will thin the tips for bending with my angle grinder and flap wheel rather than trying to forge them to fit. This is much faster and more accurate and doesn't offend MY sense of tradition much.

I often make a few nails while the forge is heating up (before it gets hot enough to tackle my larger projects). I keep these in a small jar of mixed sizes and raid it when I am working on something and just need a few. I will also make a few extras when I am making a batch for some project and they go into this jar also.

My nails are beautiful (to me anyway) and powerful! I can make very strong fastenings and repairs with them. Some are used like steel dowels to reinforce joinery (which they do with amazing success). I feel that my nails are usually stronger than modern wood screws (and WAAAaay stronger than modern wire nails).

I bought a set of tapered drill bits that I use for predrilling in many cases so that I rarely have splitting problems.

Thank You Phil! That's very interesting as 500 degrees centigrade is over 900 degrees fahrenheit! I know that I have been tempering my springs harder than that. I will try this with my next ones. I don't have an oven that will go that high but I can bake on top of the forge to do it.