30cal_Fun

Hi their,
yoop 1% isn't much,in the most spring steels Si ore Cr are the sinners when it cams to deep hardening. Si can make it even Air hardening and it doesn't take that much of it.
If nice Hamons is all you wont, than the German steels you fount work well. With practice that is

I didn't know that ,
I always thought that manganese was the real Hamon-killer, almost as much as chromium...
I did know that even 0,40% chromium can keep you from getting a Hamon, but I didn't know that manganese had THAT LITTLE effect on a Hamon.
If manganese doesn't change the hardening that much, finding good steel has suddenly become A LOT easier.

Am I right then in assuming that 0.60%-0.90% manganese will still get me a good Hamon?!?

Does anyone know a good website or book where all the effects of alloy elements in carbonsteel are explained?

less than 1% is not that much Mn really

As far as my knowledge stretches, I thought that 0,4% manganese will make a low alloyed steel like this about medium hardening, and when it goes over 0,8% it becomes deep hardening. Springsteels often have about 1% manganese and they are deep hardening.
Do you mean that even with, lets say, 0,6% manganese it will still be shallow hardening? (presuming the steel doesn't have much other significant elements)

Louis

thanks for the info, I am starting to get a picture of why steels can be shallow or deep hardening.

but my question was; why is it that EVEN WITH THIS MUCH manganese, these steels are STILL considered to be shallow hardening?
because with all this manganese, my knowledge would tell me this steel is deep hardening.

Thanks for the tip,
I saw the forum a couple of times, it might be a good idea to post a question there.

Louis

W = Werkzeugstahl
W1, W2, W3 = Werkzeugstahl 1. 2. und 3. Güte
WS = Werkzeugstahl für Sonderzwecke

it maens 1-3 Qualitie or first ist best

Danke schön! My German is not so good, but this I can understand just fine. I didn't know that, thanks for the information.

Weiß du eine gute Stahlhandel im Deutschland?
I am trying to find good steel like CK50, CK75, CK80, CK85 or CK95 or if I can find it: C70W1, C80W1, C85W1, C90W1, C100W1 or C105W1. These steels would be ideal for making Japanese style blades. In the Netherlands it is pretty much impossible to get good blade steel for making a Hamon.
So far, outside of the Netherlands, I have tried Pauly Stahlhandel, Stahl Becker, and Messenmacherbedarf. The last one has CK60, but it has a lot of manganese and I am trying to find something else with less manganese (manganese is not good for creating a Hamon).
BTW: I often see Cxx and CKxx as separate steels (like: C75 / CK75 ). Are these different steels/qualities or just different names?

If you know a steel supplier in Germany that can sell me good steel, please let me know.

Louis

The chemical designation for tungsten is actually the letter W (periodic table )

The links I gave already have the Din number (Deutsche Industrie Norm) and the Werkstofnummer in it.

Here are two other links from Diehl Steel of W1 and W2
W1
W2

I am pretty sure that the C xx W1 is actually AISI W1, but my knowledge ends there. Let me know if you find anything.

Louis

Thanks Hamurra-e,

You are correct about that, C xx W 1 and C xx W 2 are the German names (The first ones are European Werkstofnummers). But when I google it, C80W1 and 105W1 both turn out to be W1. I got that information from Metal Ravne which seems like a very reliable source.
Here are the links:
C80W1
C105W1

That the C xx W 2 are AISI W2 is just a wild guess. As far as I know, AISI W1 has more tungsten (W) and AISI W2 has more vanadium (V)

Louis

Since no one seems to be able to answer this question I hope you can help me with a different one:

At a suppliers website I found the following steels:
1.1520 C 70 W 1
1.1525 C 80 W 1
1.1530 C 85 W 1
1.1545 C 105 W 1

1.1620 C 70 W 2
1.1625 C 80 W 2
1.1630 C 85 W 2
1.1645 C 105 W 2

I am pretty much sure that the C xx W 1 steels are AISI W1 but I didn't know that W1 could have different levels of carbon. Can W1 have this many different amounts of carbon?

My second question is:
Are the C xx W 2 steels AISI W2???

Louis

The late Bob Engnath used refractory clay with great success, even still, many bladesmiths working in the Japanese style work with refractory cement or mortar, usually mixed with other ingredients, like charcoal powder, for extra insulation.
I have used clay so far and it usually cracks a little but works great, I just dry it for one or two days and repair any cracks. From building my forge I have a lot of refractory cement lying around and I intend to experiment with that.

In the end, it doesn't matter what you use as long as it serves the purpose you're after: that is insulating the spine of the blade so it cools more slowly. Almost any concoction can work as long as it does the following two thing:
1: Insulate the part not to be hardened.
2: Stick to the blade and not crack or fall off during heating in the fire or upon quenching.


My advice: take a peace of metal, rough it up with a grinder or 80grit sandpaper so the clay/refractory will stick, put your Hamon-mix on the metal like you would with a blade, put it in the fire, heat it up, and quench it.
If it cracks or falls off, experiment with other mixes, if it stays on the blade, I can almost guaranty you it will work for a blade.

Good luck and let us know how it went.

Louis

oke, thanks for you input.
I hope someone can explain it further to me.

Louis

Thanks for your explanation, I kind of understood what makes steels of the O and A series deep hardening, but now I understand better how it works.
However, I can't really follow why these steels are still shallow hardening instead of deep hardening. You say that "The low amount of alloying elements allow the crystal structure to shift quickly" but the manganese levels seem high enough to make the steel deep hardening. If this amount doesn't make it deep hardening, above what level of manganese content WILL the steel become medium- and deep- hardening?

Louis

Hi,

People have been using plain carbon steels like 1050, 1060, 1075 and others with great success in the past decades in making Japanese style blades. These steels have a solid reputation for creating a good Hamon. They are shallow hardening, it is not hard to create a Hamon, and if done well, the Hamon will be readily visible and with lots of activity.
The 1075 Katana's made by people like Rick Barrett and Anthony Dicristofano are well known for there tough blades and beautiful Hamons.
When you look at some typical analysis of the properties of these steels, you can see they have A LOT of manganese and sometimes they even have a bit of chromium (however, the chromium is usually not that high);

1050: 0.50% C, 0.25% Si, 0.75% Mn, max 0,04% P, max 0,05% S.

1060: 0.60% C, 0.25% Si, 0.75% Mn, max 0,04% P, max 0,05% S.

1075: 0.75% C, 0.25% Si, 0.75% Mn, max 0,04% P, max 0,05% S.

However, seeing these typical analysis, how can these high levels of Manganese still make it shallow hardening?!?
Pretty much everyone knows that these steels have high manganese levels, but my chemistry is not good enough to explain why it is still suitable for creating a good Hamon.

So, why is it that these steels are shallow hardening? (and therefore good for creating a Hamon)

Louis

I will be able to start forging in about two-three weeks from now, so I'll let you all know how it went.

And let us know how it forges Irontanner, I'm looking forward to see your result.

Louis

Hi,

It's been a while since I started building my Japanese style forge, but it's finally finished!
Below a description of how I did it.

First I lifted the old bbq/forge from its place and moved it to it's new spot on the concrete plateau in the back of the yard. Then I cut a few firebricks to size with an angle grinder. these bricks were easy to shape with it. I got the bricks from a fellow forum member on a Dutch blade forum.

The I started building, layer for layer, letting each one dry for a week.
below a picture of the old bbq/forge that I used as a base. No sense letting all that good concrete go to waste:


Here she is after the first layer:


Then the second and last layer:


Then a top coat to make the surface nice and smooth:


Here a few pictures of me at work:


And the brand new anvil I got last week!


And this is how she will look during forging, I am not building it up further, because this way I can just add or remove bricks when necessary.
I didn't move the tuyère (air pipe) as planned, I will see how this goes first.



So far the build of my new charcoal forge.
I have O2 Toolsteel (1.2842) and S4 Springsteel (1.2826) on the way and in tree weeks, I'll have all the time in the world to start forging blades!
I also plan on making some Tsuba's so with this new forge I can blacken them nicely.

Let me know what you think,
Louis

oke, Thanks for the info!

The other steel I am ordering is S4 spring steel (DIN 60MnSiCr4, Werkstoffnummer 1.2826). It seems to be in the ballpark of AISI 92XX except that it has less Silicon and more Chromium. That will make it a deep-hardening steel, but a lot of companies like Cheness and even James Raw make very tough differentially hardened Katana's out of spring steel.
Has anyone tried getting a Hamon with these kinds of spring steel?

And one last question: Should I get a digital temperature gauge?

Louis

Aus temp...the manufacturer knows..ask for a data sheet. Start at 1365F and work your way up to 1550F in small steps of 25-50F..see which is best for what you want. Let it soak to full temp for at least five minutes.
Do you have an accurate way to measure temperature?

I will ask him about it, I have several data sheets for O2 already, so I can use those too.
I do not have a digital temperature gauge if that's what you mean.
I thought about getting one, but they are pretty expensive.

Try looking for a copy of "alloy Elements in Steel" by Edgar Bain.
0.3 MN can double the hardenability of steel...so imagine what 2% does...

Looks like a good book. I knew that even a small amount can give different behavior, but not that much.
I know there are some good knife makers here, but I haven't been able to find many.

BTW: I came across a company selling DIN 75Cr1 (werkstoffnummer 1.2003) it is a German variation of AISI 1075 and chemically the same except for the addition of 0,30%-0,40% Chromium. I know 1075 steel is VERY suitable for making Japanese style blades, would this steel be too? exExactly what will the 0,30%-0,40% Chromium do?

Louis

It is a deeper hardening steel due to the manganese content

Never knew that manganese is responsible for making steel medium/deep hardening, thanks for the info! still, compared to W1 (having about 0,5% Manganese)it only has 0,5%-1,0% more.

I heard you could still get O2 in Europe..not so in the US

O2 is actually one of the few decent blade steels I can get in this part of Europe, I would REALY love to get some plain carbon steel like 1060, 1075 or 1085, But I can't buy them anywhere without having to resort to importing it from far away.

Watch your austenizing temps and be as close to the transformation temp as possible for that steel.

How do I do that?
I would think checking with a magnet to see that it is heated above non-magnetic and then quench would be good.

And one more question: do you think interrupted quenching will give a better defined and detailed Hamon?

Louis

Hi,

I have a lot of O2 tool steel and I intend to make knives out of it and differentially harden them.
I want to get a Hamon on it by coating it with clay in the Japanese style.
Would it be possible to get a good hamon on O2 steel?

Has anyone tried to differentially harden O2? If you have pictures of (differentially hardened) O2 knives or any information, it's welcome!

Thanks,
Louis

I do not have much experience in bladesmithing itself, but throughout the years have studied the Japanese blademaking process meticulously. Books like "The craft of the Japanese sword" are a good read for subjects like this. And for specific things there is usually a good website explaining things, but one site can say one thing and the other one can say a totally different thing. The key is filtering out the info you need.

I think Basher nailed it exactly in his last post. There is no "one size fits all" and Japanese bladesmithing is different from western style bladesmithing.
And the Japanese use rice straw ashes for two other reasons;
Temperature control; to prevent over-heating/cooling of the billet as it put in the fire and when taken out by forming a blanket between the steel and the air.
Sparks flying of; to reduce the rain of sparks that the white-hot Tamahagane fresh from the fire produces when struck with the hammer, the rice straw ashes again act as a blanket to control a lot of the sparks flying of.

I could go on and on about why the Japanese use rice straw ashes and why it works for them, and I am sure someone else has a slightly different explanation as well.
but when Basher said "Japanese trained (Czechoslovakian)Sword smith" I could help but think of Pavel Bolf.
His website: jswords
On his site he has some VERY GOOD VIDEOS of his way of swordsmithing which is very close the the Japanese way. In his videos he shows well HOW AND WHEN HE USES RICE STRAW ASHES, here is a link to his first video: Part 1 of making Katana

Seeing it with your own eyes is always better than explaining.

Louis

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the reply.
Oh, and don't worry about gallons to liters or anything, google solves whatever I might not know

In addition, I might try interrupted quenching to aid the clay coated blade in differential hardening.
I hope the weather gets better this week, I can't wait to start building my forge!
Here is a drawing of what I intend to build. Every square is 2x2 inches, so the scale is 1:10.


Louis

I've never encountered this statement. I have been looking to estimate how much oil I need for general tasks and never found a recommendation.

Phil

Me neither, but I have wondered about it often. Good to know.
I have never weighed my blades, but since I only forge small blades up to Tanto size, I think I would hardly need more than one gallon.

Having read all of the above posts, I think I will stick with my sunflower oil. My backyard will smell like French fries when I am done quenching.

Louis

About the oil mix,
The oils you mention earlier I have not seen anywhere here. But then again, we don't have stores like Brownell's here.
I have a couple of liters of sunflower oil at hand. Someone on another forum said to use a mix of 50% sunflower oil and 50% mineral oil. Why the mineral oil? or would simple sunflower oil be fine?
I have seen different grades of viscosity, I think this goes for mineral oils as well. would it be better to use to use an oil with a low (like 5W-30) or high (like 15W-50) viscosity, or doesn't viscosity matter with mineral oil? Or would it be better to use mineral oil entirely?

Here I go with all my questions again But the whole mineral oil / viscosity thing got me thinking now.

Louis

Leaf springs do have a reputation for being 5160.

Oke, thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

Louis

I think I made it sound better and easier than it is.

First of all, here are some pictures of the trailer. trailer.bmptrailer 2.bmp As you can see, the structure itself is badly rusted, and restoring it would cost more than buying a new one. But the owner send me extra pictures of the springs, and except for some surface rust, they are fine.
Second, there is no "spring shop" around the corner here. And IF you can find it, it is either already under a car, or you pay 30 Dollars for 50cm (20 inches) of steel, you don't even have to try getting leftovers.
I went to the only scrapyard in the area last Thursday, there were some underneath a boxcar, but they didn't want to take apart the whole car just so I could get the springs.
Living in a country where you can get things brand new is nice, except when you are trying to get leftovers from factories, scrap steel or other stuff thats almost unaffordable when bought new. In these kind of situations, it would be much easier in the USA.

Louis

I stand corrected.
I knew that (coil) springs where and are made from various materials, but I didn't know that it could be this many.
However, the steels you both mention and the steels that are on Anvilfires website all have enough carbon to be hardened successfully. Besides, but correct me if I am wrong on this one, spring steel in general should have enough carbon to be properly hardened.
So whether it is 5160 or even 1095, with experimentation I think I can figure out what hardening method and temperatures work for this steel.

I am buying an old trailer, a small one with a loading area of about 1x1,5 meter, It has some good leaf springs on it that are both about 8 stacks thick. I am going to use the leaf springs as blade making material. I can't find much information about leaf springs though.
As far as I know in leaf springs; 5160 is the most common. Is this correct or are other steels also used often for leaf springs? If you can give me a few options of what I could be dealing with, I would be grateful.

Louis