30cal_Fun

Sorry for the late reply, I hadn't checked for a couple of days. Since I haven't used the steel before I will do an interrupted quench. Quench, count to five quickly (about 3 seconds), then pull it out, count to five quickly again, put it back in the water and keep it there till it is cool enough to touch. Getting past the pearlite nose in this steel should take about one second, so this way it should have plenty time to get past the pearlite nose and still minimize the shock. BTW: I always move the blade through the water from tip to tip during the quench. Kind regards, Louis

By now I think I have a good idea of how to heat treat the steel. I try to keep it as traditional as possible, I know modern steel is far from tamahagane of orishigane, but nevertheless I will always use (luke- warm or warm) water. Water will give a more active hamon than oil. Kind regards, Louis

Thanks for the tips. If 780 turns out to be too low, I will try 800C. I always try to heat slowly. The reason why I am starting at 780C (1440F) is because this steel is right around the eutectoid point. Therefore it requires the lowest temperature and shortest soak time of all blade-steels. Howard Clark suggested 780C to me as a starting point because of these reasons. So far I have changed to things: I am going to do 3 normalizing cycles, just to insure the grain is as small as possible. Better safe than sorry and it can't hurt the blade (if done properly of course). I will also temper at 175C (350F) at first and go to 200C only if necessary. Kind regards, Louis

Hi everyone, I recently bought C80W2, the steel arrived yesterday, here is the chemical analysis: C 0,82% Si 0,25% Mn 0,22% Mo -- V -- Cr 0,10% Ni 0,05% Cu 0,06% W 0,01% P 0,030% max S 0,030% max I have never worked with this steel before so I hope you can give me some tips about how to heat treat this steel. I intend to make several tanto with the steel and I will be claying it to form a hamon. This steel seemed ideal to make a hamon. From the information I have gathered this seems like a good heat treatment: Normalize 2 times by heating to 820 Celcius (1510F), taking it out of the fire, cool till black color, heat up to 820 again, cool to room temperature. Clay the blade, clay thickness will be about 5mm (1/5 inch). Heat to 780 Celcius (1440F), soak for a few minutes, then quench in water. Temper two times at 200 C (390 F) for one hour. Let me know what you think about this. I am not sure about the normalizing. Any feedback or tips are welcome. Louis

Send you a PM/email. Louis

Hoi NN4N, Je bent niet de enige hoor Ik en vele anderen zijn ook op zoek naar goed staal om messen en zwaarden van te maken. Nederland is een heel moeilijk land als het gaat om goed zwaard-/messenstaal. Probeer Sword Forum Benelux, daar kun je een hoop informatie vinden. Mijn gebruikersnaam daar is ook 30cal_Fun. Een goede is Telma knive steels, deze heeft stalen als C105W1, L6, prima voor messen. Je bent vast bekende stalen als CK60, CK75, C105 enz. tegengekomen, bijvoorbeeld bij Telmastaal (ik had bijna O2 staal bij Hersbach besteld), of bij Noviostaal, helaas leveren zij deze stalen vaak maar in een dikte van 3mm, niet echt handig voor een messensmid. Ik heb na maanden zoeken eindelijk een Roemeens bedrijf gevonden wat C80W2 staal heeft, hier de analyse: C: 0,75% - 0,85% Si: 0,10% - 0,30% Mn: 0,10% - 0,40% P: Maximaal 0,030% S: Maximaal 0,030% En hier de link naar de thread: C80W2 staal Dit staal is prima voor het maken van zowel zwaarden als messen en ideaal voor het maken van een Hamon als je dat wilt. Het is vergelijkbaar met AISI 1080 staal maar een stuk zuiverder met veel minder mangaan, fosfor en zwavel. Ik heb dit staal voor mijzelf en een aantal andere messensmeden op swordforumbenelux besteld, kijk maar even op de link. Als je wilt kun je meebestellen, ik kan mijn order nog veranderen. Groetjes, Louis Sorry to break into this thread writing in Dutch, but finding good steel here can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Louis

I think for the 1% top line of my spark test spectrum the C105 would be best since I know it has 1,05% carbon. I haven't gotten around to testing the car coil spring today, but I will tomorrow. One last question: I found some thick leaf springs from an old trailer, are these also likely 5160 steel?

I have some old files, but I have no idea what they should be. Now that you mention it, I think I still have some car coil spring, should be 5160. I already tested some structural steel, which should be about 0,18% carbon, and the C105 I have, it was MUCH closer to the C105. I will try the car coil spring tomorrow.

I think that's a great idea, but might be harder than it seems, you can't just get "a scrap piece" of steel like 1050, 1060, 1075 or 1095 here, I contacted dozens of suppliers, some have these steel, but I either have to buy 1 or 2 tons, or they don't have it at all, and the maximum dimensions they have it in is no more that 3mm thickness (0,12 inch), not good for sword forging. We don't have anything like Admirals steel or The steel baron here . C105 (roughly W1) we have plenty here though because it is a common tool steel. Never thought of that, thanks for the tip.

Interesting, never knew ordinary AISI steel could differ so much in manganese content. Someone told me that the manganese content he gets in his steel (1075) is usually much lower than mentioned; about 0,3%. Do you know if it is true that the manganese content is usually much lower than the 0.30%-0.50% or even 0.50%-0.80% that is displayed in typical analysis?

That's a good idea, I already made a word document with suppliers; what steel they have, in what dimensions, for what price etc. But I can do the same thing with spark tests.

Now that I think of it, I have C105 steel (1,05% carbon), I can use that as a base line.

I think you might very well be correct about the reason why. It certainly explains the choice for 0,50% carbon, I never quite understood that part. 1069: I never saw this steel in particular anywhere, do you know where I can find information about it? Also, I found a company who can supply me with C80W2 steel, here is an analysis: C: 0,75% - 0,85% Si: 0,10% - 0,30% Mn: 0,10% - 0,40% P: Max 0,030% S: Max 0,030% I think this steel will be perfect for creating a Hamon, and tough enough for a katana, what do you think? Louis

Thanks for explanation, Well said Frosty.

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it! Presuming it is an old pry bar/rock bar, what kind of steel do you think this is? BTW: what is a "tanker's bar"? Louis

Hi, Yesterday my eye fell on what I think is an old masonry chisel or jack hammer bit. It must be at least 30 years old. I has been here as long as I can remember. I have only been making blades for a couple of years, so it never came across me to see what kind of steel it is. Lately I have been learning a lot about scrap steel sources and when I saw this one again I thought about doing a spark test on it. Here are two videos I made of the spark test: Video1 Video 2 My videos are not very clear but to me it seems about 1% carbon. When I have the opportunity I want to try to make some blades out of this old chisel. I have been looking at other spark test videos but I find it hard to tell how much carbon it has. This guy has a good collection of spark test videos: C105-C75 One note about his videos: C45 is AISI 1045, C75 is AISI 1075, C105 has 1,05% carbon, C120 has 1,2% carbon etc, they're European designations for the common AISI steels. Does anyone happen to know what kind of steel was used for chisels/jack hammer bits like these? Or what the carbon content is? The chisel itself is almost 27 inch long, 1,6 inch wide and one inch thick. Here are a couple of pictures of it: Thanks for any help, Louis

yes, putting on the clay is an art in itself. If the thickness is uneven, the blade can warp. If you put too much clay on the back of the blade, the blade might curve to much and might even crack because of the stress. Ashi can be to thick or thin, and so on... To answer your question, no, it is best to let the clay dry thoroughly, it will shrink during drying and you might have to patch it up. If you dry it in the fire, the clay is sure to fall off, making it useless.

I didn't know that, I thought that they would be made from suitable steel considering the wear and heat they see.

That's interesting. then again, technically speaking, a breakdrum is a high speed tool that sees a lot of wear and high temperatures. so if it is just surface hardened, then it could wear of.

Thanks for the links Phil! It has some good information about the TTT curve. They will probably come in handy at some point, I know a bit about quenching media etc., but not much about transition temperatures or TTT curves and such. I have been studying the whole pearlite, ferrite, cementite, austenite and martensite thing for some time and even the "magical" bainite hype, and I am starting to understand something about it. I am not a metallurgical scientist however, so any information is very welcome. You are probably right in assuming that a higher carbon content will change the Hamon, different chemical composition means different crystalline structures forming. Why does everybody make this statement everywhere these days?!? I don't know where this information came from, but it is simply not true and there is no evidence to base this on. First of all: Phil, please do not take this last line personally, it is not meant for you but for all those that make this statement. I respect you a lot for your knowledge and input and I do not mean to attack you personally. I just see this statement pop up more and more on a lot of forums. I do not mean to say that I am an expert on metallurgy, or an experienced smith, but I know enough of the Japanese sword (making process) to know that this is simply not true. Please let me try to explain why the whole 1050-Japanese sword thing is not true and my personal vision on this. If you have any remarks or additions, I would love to hear them. The first thing you have to remember is that the Japanese sword is a laminate of (lets take the most common Kobuse here): Shingane (low-carbon core-steel) and Kawagane (high-carbon coat-steel), so it is never a single piece of steel. I have one analysis of Tamahagane and the resulting Sunobe-steel (Sunobe-, or sword-blank steel is the resulting steel of the whole forging/folding/purification process and has the properties that make the final sword), here it is: tamahagane.pdf As you can see, it ranges from 0,37% carbon (probably for Shingane) all the way up to 0,69% carbon (probably for Kawagane). In "The Craft of the Japanese sword" by Yoshindo Yoshihara, he speaks of using steel with 0,7% carbon and his brother Shoji using steel with 0,6% carbon. Hamurra put it well in his statement. Modern day steel like 1050 can not be compared to Sunobe-steel or even Tamahagane. It has very different chemical properties. Japanese sword-steel is very low in manganese and silicium for a start, very different from western steels. It is like saying L6, O2 and W2 are all the same steels because they are western steels. The closest western equivalent we have to Sunobe-steel is probable C70W1 (AISI W1 steel with 0,7% carbon) or even better C60W1 if it would exist. However, It is true that 1050 is a good sword-steel, and that it is a good steel to create a Hamon with, but it does not mean it is "the same" as Sunobe- or Japanese sword steel. Louis

Hi Hamurra, Thanks, from Kaker.com isn't it , I found some other data that suggests this too. I ordered C105W1 (1.1545) steel from Telma Knive Steels, here is an analysis of the steel I ordered: C = 1,0 – 1,1 % Si = 0,1 – 0,3 % Mn = 0,1 – 0,35% P = 0,03% S = 0,03% It is high in carbon, but very pure with little else, so it should be very good for creating a Hamon in Tanto's. Louis

Well, I have no idea what this steel could be. I don't think it's be good for a Hamon, but thats a guess at best.

oke, I will look trough it more. I did already, but couldn't find exactly what I was looking at first.

yes, If you have a hamon it can take a lot of polishing to reveal it, Japanese Togishi (sword polishers) can take two weeks to finish a blade. One of the first blades I made with a Hamon I polished up to 1000grit and it still needed an etch with vinegar to reveal it, but then again, it was pretty louse steel What steel did you use? That can explain a lot, because not every steel will show a hamon well.

I just looked at it, it has some good information about what elements do in steel, but not how the hardening responds to that. Thanks non the less, I have it saved.