Red Green

I’m sorry Phil it’s my fault I come across antagonistic to some folks. It’s not usually purposeful, but I can be an old stinker. Hey that’s a good idea, I think it could be adapted to older tools and there may be some way to create an attachment to hold different sized swages. Why not design one and show it? Oh yea if you want to get a patent you might not want to do that. I think I’d hold off any serious investment, as of yet no one has even spoke about what design features would be proper for the holder only that it isn’t wanted. But then only smiths that have a great deal of tooling have spoken I believe, no beginner would risk live and limb in this fray. I may have caused myself to be placed on the ‘black list’ with my heresy. Perhaps if I repent soon I will not face excommunication.

OK I suppose the consensus is there is no need to bother. No one wants or needs any tool that was not designed 100 years ago. Well it’s an easy way for tool makers to find out what not to make. Perhaps when a fifty pound aso costs $500.00 it may be worth the effort.

Hey Mr. McCoy, I think the point is still not understood, my design is not the issue, it’s an example. I like the design I think it would work just fine, but it is not important to the goal. The goal is tools that can be used on it or independently mounted however the user wants. Tools of this size would be many times less expensive to obtain or make yourself than an anvil or swage block. In order for tools to be made there must be a reason. Tool makers know there’s a market for blacksmithing equipment but not many can build anvils, swage blocks or leg vices at a profit. Those tools require large masses of steal that require larger tools to form. Most of the mass on these tools are not the working surfaces, they do not require hardening, but they are attached to the rest of the tool so? Transporting or shipping costs for heavy iron is not cheap, it must be strapped to a pallet and shipped by truck, UPS will ship up to 150#. Making good quality forging tools is the goal, and with enough mass solidly attached in whatever way I see no reason why it should not work. Businessmen work for profit… even blacksmiths, they look for demand, there is demand for tools but the reason to build has not been established. Anvils and swage blocks were designed in a different era we don’t live in it. Those tools were considered consumables then. They are not today. While they are beautiful and preferred they are not cheap, or absolutely necessary. In order to reach the goal tool makers need a reason to build them, hence the ‘standardized holder’. If enough smiths said they were interested in these tools I assure you the makers will fill the market.

How are you Mr. Grant, Your quote was ‘too good’! You appear to be willing to investigate the possibility of a ‘standard tool holder’ but it seems most people haven’t a clue as how this standard could benefit them. Perhaps I’ve made a fundamental misstep; it may be that like most requests for comments the ‘commercial’ interest seems to drive the results. So with that in mind I was wondering if you and others here that do make tooling for sale would be interested in looking into this possibility. Hopefully with enough tool builders showing their interest in offering new tools for a ‘standard base’ they approved of and helped design would hasten the pace. I know not many small businessmen are prepared to invest in an unproven market, but I believe a properly designed tool holder and a few prototype tops demonstrated in the proper venues would drive market interest with a minimum investment. Perhaps we could find someone who does a lot of demos and would use them at no cost, I believe those watching would quickly get the point. I am flabbergasted at the comments I am getting you’d think I was selling snake oil. I would prefer to keep all comments and ideas public but I know business demands are essentially private. Perhaps some type of compromise would work.

Good day Mr. arftist, let me assure you I’m not angry, at times my poor choice of words and odd sense of placement and timing can cause me to appear to display unintended emotion or even the lack of proper emotion at the proper times, particularly in print. True, this is not your problem, and may seem a poor excuse to someone who does not understand, so let me apologize. If I have offended you with my words it was unintentional, I’m simply trying to get my point across. I am at fault in post 20 I did try to be what I thought was ‘tongue in cheek’ with the lines ’ I understand you don’t want to fiddle with any silly thing that is not a traditional blacksmith tool.’ and ‘And while I would like to believe this tool base is a good idea, you are again right quality used blacksmithing tools are cheap and plentiful. The new anvil and tool market must be crying their eyes out with no sales.’ and may have stepped over the line with ‘You’re probably correct also invention and ‘refinement’ as you put it is just an excuse or fools and beginners to waste time.’ . I have been told many times not to attempt humor it goes so easily wrong, so to you and all others reading this thread I am truly sorry if I have offended you and will attempt to curb my tongue. Grant’s post was indeed inspiring, and spot on in my opinion. I see your question as ‘what can this thing do for me?’ perhaps not one single thing, not every tool will work proper for everybody. I would be quite a fool if I thought it would. You’re a well equipped and knowledgeable smith perhaps you’ll never want or need this tool, I think your circumstances may be a small percentage of the people out there. It seems the ones that may have a need are watching the experienced smiths and listening to their replies, they keep being told to buy junk anvils and tools and see how much they hate the frustration of working with it. I know its hard for you to understand from where you stand, but I truly believe if you had to use some broken down aso to smith with you would chuck it out the door and go in search of a better way. Perhaps if an anvil top meant for this holder were available some guy ready to give up could mount it to a rr tie buried three feet in the ground with the top bolted down tight could get the job done and be proud of his work. It may take him years to get his kit together but at least he has some place to start. This is just one possibility there are more I’m sure. I have heard it more than once I think that a cheap used kit only costs a couple of grand, and I’m sure its inspiring to the struggling beginners out there to hear it’s a pittance to a successful smith. I’m sure many out here envious of your success. As for me I’m lucky I have a Hay Budden true its 150# but I find it serviceable, a 70# leg vice and a 100# swage block and nowhere near all the tools I want. Would I want a top of the line holder and all the tooling I could conceive? I can say yes, indeed. I made a huge misstep using the word anvil in the title, most smiths get real protective when their anvil is challenged this is not an anvil replacement it’s a tool holder. I wrongly used the word anvil, what I meant was ‘a holder for shaped blocks of any kind for the purpose of shaping metal with a hammer or any other weapon you chose’ but it seems kinda long. If someone out there could put a word for this object that makes smiths love it instead of despising it please help!! I wonder if the guy who made the first swage block was confronted with, why would anyone want that?? It’s not an anvil and we have hardy’s for all those things, are you some kind of flimflam man?? New ideas are hard to swallow sometimes and improperly presented can cause great distress. It’s also true my financial situation is less than perfect, but the holder is not the tools for the holder, somebody with just the holder would have two blocks of unhardened steel, they may be able to forge something on it but that’s not the plan. The holder isn’t even necessary to use the tools made for it, which is a very important design feature, top tool designs should be independently functional if possible. Perhaps someone will design a top that you would use, you may never buy or build a holder but you may convert it to hold to your vice or hardy hole and you get a new tool you never thought you needed. I don’t see why a smith would be against the possibility of a new useful tool. The idea of standardization is to get as many as producers of tools as possible to build tools so a greater variety of tools are made available. Ease of building the top tools I think should make a variety of cost effective quality ‘dollies’. As for smiths making their own forging ‘dollies’ most will not have the facilities or the determination to harden a tool of any size, but many will I’m sure. As for me to correct you, I’m sure from where you stand you appear correct, however, I would like you to look at the problem many face from their side. Please remember I’m not trying to take anything from anyone, I’m not asking for money only your time and wisdom, and don’t even know how I could make any money at any point with this endeavor. It’s not for me that I’m doing this, I only wish to give.

Hey Mr. southshoresmith, I am impressed, that looks like a nice busy comfortable well equipped shop. I must admit I would love such a set up. You are no doubt lucky, talented and smart choose one or all three labels however you see fit, you’ll hear no argument from me. I and many others I’m sure would consider giving an arm and a leg to have access to such a nice shop. I hope you enjoy working there for as many years as pleases you. Perhaps you will share some of the ‘secrets’ of running such an operation, if you don't feel comfortable about doing so here I for one will follow you to your own.

Hey Mr. southshoresmith, I have taken no offence by your words. But I do admit they exasperate me to no end. And ok you don’t think Mr. Hofi is a ‘superb’ smith I assume because he not a traditional smith. Then you go on to say that 18th century iron work is ‘humbling’, it is beautiful, but if you went back in time to where it was made I think (hope) you would be appalled by the conditions of the people who worked on it, perhaps you would understand what humble is, hunger and misery will make almost anyone humble. I must be a true nube, I have no idea what a ‘full traditional set up’ is. Traditional from what era 5000BC? Yesterday? What region of the world? Please post some pictures so I can learn, I’d like to be as successful as you.

Ok, this is a rant so skip it if your not in the mood. New tools are purchased and made by those with the need in the present or the foresight to see need in the future. A wise craftsman knows his tools can define his work and they can make some jobs easy that were extremely hard, I’m sure you know this. The cost to buy or build ‘standard base’ is immaterial a tools value is not its cost. Smiths all know a hammer is a heavy ‘something’ you hit things with, why spend time and money on a hammer, rocks are everywhere. People have had the same level of intelligents for hundreds of thousands of years, yet we have only been smithing for a short few thousand. I’m sure the first guy to make a hammer was told it was a waste of time and effort, can’t you see all these rocks stupid? I’m sure he saw the rocks but aren’t you glad he made the hammer anyway? Tradition is an important thing it shows the path of the successful, but if you cannot see past it you can be trapped within it. I hope Mr. Hofi will forgive me for continuing to use him as a positive example, but he has shown many a way of forging that is not traditional and works quite well, I’m sure to the dismay of the staunch traditionalist who I’m sure tell all who will listen it’s a waste of time and effort, and you should continue to work in a way they see as traditional. In truth we live in a modern world who owes much of its comfort to smiths who continued to expand their knowledge, many of the trades and professions are simply refinements of the ‘traditional’ smith. And yes its true smiths invented and designed themselves right out of the forge, most were happy to leave a life of hard work and little reward, I’m sure the traditionalist would be happy to live a life like that, I wonder why they don’t? I’m not trying to get anyone out of the forge, we are in one for many reasons, some because they need to eat some are just having fun I just want to make tools to help. I would love to build a prototype and display its potential, but alas my financial situation prevents this, perhaps someone will have the foresight to take up the slack I have left. I could build a scrap version of the base but that does not provide the ‘standard’ required for tool makers to use as the ‘standard’. I may have to sing this song solo till I’m sick of the words, I sure would like to hear the choir sing something besides ‘can’t be done’. Once again the design is an example or a starting point to find the ‘standard’ tool makers will accept as the basis for making tools for it. If no one but myself sees the potential for a sturdy tool holder that can be used to build tools in any manner chosen then yes I’m wasting my time. I feel that many think I’m trying to kick over their Hay Budden and set my dang fool contraption in its place. That is not what this is about. Open your minds to something new, I know schools, businesses and governments require everyone to think and live in the narrow path they have decided everyone must follow and never think for themselves so I’m sure it’s a challenge for many to see past where there nose is placed. The world has not seen all that is good, but people will have to find it and not be detoured by those who feel they should be the only ones to enjoy it. If you have everything you must be very lucky, talented or smart congratulations, now how about sharing? If you are a ‘staunch traditionalist’ why not start a thread about why there should be no changes in what you have decided a ‘true blacksmith’ is. Please let us newbies know what the limitations are so we won’t step over the line.

Hello Mr. McCoy Sharing is easy you open up yourself and give, this is no challenge, you take a horse to water and you can even drowned him, but you can’t make him drink. I’m sure Metals Depot is a fine establishment and after I win the lotto I’ll have them deliver stock via overnight courier.

Hey Mr. southshoresmith how are you? I understand you don’t want to fiddle with any silly thing that is not a traditional blacksmith tool. And I agree why would you need something that required you to choose a tool to install if you have every tool made for blacksmithing already, placed in exactly the right place in a perfect shop. And while I would like to believe this tool base is a good idea, you are again right quality used blacksmithing tools are cheap and plentiful. The new anvil and tool market must be crying their eyes out with no sales. I cannot say if Mr. Hofi’s hammer is the best forging hammer ever as I have not had the pleasure of using one. I’m sure I don’t need to defend Mr. Hofi or his ‘refinement’ assuming you mean ‘to bring closer to perfection’ and I’m sure you’re not inferring that he is claiming unwarranted recognition for his hammer with the statement “Hofi is a superb market(er) and a good blacksmith”. I don’t know him but I see him as a superb blacksmith and teacher, a very generous one at that, just his excellent blueprints on this site are unprecedented and unmatched as far I have seen. I’m a nube here and I’m sure you must have shared a great deal as your obviously very talented and successful blacksmith where can I see it? I’m not sure what your question is if it is have I ever worked in a forge that has everything, then no can’t say that I have, probably never will, sounds like a tall order. It’s great you have ‘the whole deal’ and feel unlimited and empowered. You’re probably correct also invention and ‘refinement’ as you put it is just an excuse or fools and beginners to waste time. I look forward to your teaching me a great deal in the future.

I see no one has any ideas to improve this concept and no new designs offered. So I’ve been playing with Photo shop some more. Hey if you’re sure you hate the idea of gaining new tools at least pat me on the head and tell me I draw nice for a retarded kid. This is a bolted saddle for wedging top tools to the blocks its 2” wide to fit the gap in the base, by 5 or 6 inches long. I think if a builder could make top blocks that were flat bottomed with threaded holes it will help hold down costs. The second drawing is of course a legless vice and then the base with legs. Mr. Grant thank you, you may be able to clarify the mud I seem to have stirred up please continue it is needed and wanted, I thought I had made it clear what this is about. Perhaps it’s my choice of words, if I seem unintelligible and vague I am dyslexic and confuse even myself at times. Mr. Powers that’s a good idea but I think it would make a good tool to attach to the base. Mr. Bob the idea is not to limit how you could use or attach the tools you get to make that decision, it’s that the tools will be made, so we can get and use them in any manner we chose. As for building a base, I believe a country boy like you and I can get any job done, if we’ve a mind to. Hello again Mr. Southshoresmith I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth, I thought I speaking generally to everyone. I am not interested in a debate but do you really feel that every possible tool that man can conceive in blacksmithing was concluded by industry for profit 50 or 100 years ago? If so go tell Mr. Hofi his hammer is not any good because it wasn’t invented at the right time. It is true the term ‘dollies’ is used in auto repair work, that is because the blacksmiths that became body repairmen brought the term with them, along with the rest of their ‘iron’ as my father referred to his tools. I have made many tools in my life many that snap-on will never sell, most body and frame men even back in the ‘80s did not even know what they were. And truly few even asked, they were sure if snap-on didn’t sell it, it didn’t matter. I out worked and out earned them, but that did not seem to matter, they missed a chance to obtain some knowledge at little cost to them and few had sense enough to gain it. I think if you look at the design with an open mind you may see some merit in it. I don’t know where you are but good blacksmithing equipment is not cheap here. I can’t say for sure but I don’t think even new hot rolled steel will cost more than an anvil of the same weight, perhaps someone with that information will correct me. I sincerely hope the holder I’d like to see developed may be of some small benefit to you someday. Hey arftist why would you say that? Your not a snap-on salesman are you? Have you ever used a leg vice with a wedged hold-down? Did it hold ok for you? Move around? No? that’s how wedges work simple, reliable easy to change, tools have used wedges for eons. Scrap iron in my humble opinion is not to be looked down upon. All your hardy tools fit perfect? Have all you’ll ever want? Don’t need a swage block that has that doodad thingy? How about a vice at the end? No? You’re happy with things just the way they are, and you don’t want any changes for anybody? Grant has said he feels his design is too expensive due to machining and shipping for the average smith, that’s what this is about finding a way to make it possible to bring tools to those who want them. The base I have offered is the “standard” meant to start a process that will accomplish this goal. Self built bases to use the tools that will follow will be made in any way smiths want. The base is what tool makers will use as a ‘standard’ to follow, like this “OC tools is proud to announce the new “legless leg vice” for the “standard base” this sucker holds!! And it only requires to be placed on an outside corner and two 9/16 tapped holes (instructions included) includes all attaching parts or stand alone for your custom build.” See now don’t you want one? OC builds good tools so order now so he can to get to work making them!!! Seriously a standardized tool base is a good idea, I’m surprised by the lack of initial support. Perhaps my lack of oratory skills is the cause, hopefully someone will step forward and speak with a clarity the masses will imbibe. ….Repeat after me, it’s not an anvil, it’s not an anvil, it’s not an anvil, it’s not an anvil.;)

Hey how are you today southshoresmith? I’m not sure what your comments were aimed at, but I think you missed the point. What I’m thinking is the community to design and develop a base to hold forging ‘dollies’. Large heavy anvils are wonderful tools, but only the lucky few of us who have money have them. There is a need for inexpensive quality anvil tops. Look beyond your comfortable world, there are many more who don’t live in it. Manufactures of anvils and tools only build tools for a market where there is profit, I want to make a market in the ‘rich’ world that will benefit even the poor. A modern blacksmith is little different than a smith 100 years ago, his tools are basically unchanged, in my opinion because many of the tools are elegant simplicity and because the loss of need. Due to the lack of need in the industrial world mostly what has survived is the artist and the poor. A successful artist is busy making pretty things for the rich and can afford any tool he wants. The poor smith makes do with what he can get. Tool makers will build and sell any tool the rich will buy, if it is available and affordable the poor get access to it. If we design a basic holder for smaller ‘inserts’ for anvil tools that the artist will want to use we will have successfully accomplished the goal. I promise if the tools are available the poor will find a way to use them by making do as always. What I’m trying to accomplish is a ’standard’ affordable base for anvil tops, swages, fuller hardies, whatever, with enough support in the community to get manufactures to make affordable products for them. I don’t think two pieces of 2” iron with five square holes burnt through in each one with a torch is ‘complicated’ nor would it be expensive. I was inspired by Grants fabricated anvil and Bryan Brazeal’s style anvil. My goal is not to defend my design it’s not the point, I like it but it is an example. I know this is not the usual way new tools are brought to light, perhaps this will work, help! Please don’t say that new ideas are unnecessary and everything in the world of blacksmithing is perfect as it is, it’s not. Let me turn this around, say you have a 500lb new anvil and your 9 year old just wants to hammer away, you could take off the swage block top off you holder put on the S7 flat and horn hand him a 1 pound riveting hammer and walk away smiling. Use your imagination there are a thousand possibilities let’s find them!

Hey Bryan. The tools I drew on top were just examples of what could be done, I tried to make it look like a Hofi anvil top (I hope he makes them, think how many people could afford one if it was just the top)but you can put anything on the base. The idea is to allow anyone to build tools and attach them the base in any fashion they chose. The wedges are one way to attach top tools, or you could bolt down the tool by placing a flat across the square holes and bolting through it. The sides, slabs whatever they are sit parallel to each other and are held by any means you can think of. The drawing is what I in vision as the top of the line version of the base. What I would like to see is some poor slob with some angle iron an scrounged up wood and filled with concrete getting started with a anvil top tools that will give him more than grieve. And yes only heat treating the working sacrifices would be a great advantage too and it would be easy to transport in pieces if you didn't weld the base parts together. I see allot of possibilities.

Yes,the wedges I believe would work well and will make for quick top tool changing. I got the idea from when I used a Bear frame machine many years ago, they worked a charm. But you could also bolt down tools by placing a bridge across the plates. I'm sure there are many ways to use this simple idea.

could you call me when feeling real charitable?

Grant those are very nice. Not that it matters but do you hand carve those or mill them? Do you charge a flat rate or by the time required to build?

Hello, This is a ‘request for comments’ for an ‘open standard’ anvil base, please contribute your ideas and opinions. What I had in mind was an affordable, well designed and easy to transport anvil. Today we have the ability to communicate with a large number of smiths and the vendors who wish to service them. I was thinking an ‘open standard’ anvil base would be a great benefit to many smiths and manufactures of smithing equipment. We should use this to develop an ‘open standard’ anvil base that vendors can depend on to receive their tooling with confidence. What I think should be required is an anvil base that can be built by modern machining or manufactured by a smith, as simple as a good burn out on a block of ‘cheap iron’ or scrap. Designed to accept reasonably easy to obtain pre-made or self built top tooling. This ‘open standard anvil base’ can provide a basis for well made tooling thereby making a good starting anvil available to a great many underfinanced smiths and potentially some wonderful tooling for everyone. I feel like I’m preaching to the choir as I’m sure many others have voiced this idea before. I’m sure many people have some great ideas on how this ‘standard’ should be set up. Perhaps we should start by setting up the requirements and minimums so a manufacturer of equipment can expect their products to work with, or build and offer a ‘standard anvil base’ also. This I believe should be very minimal, we should not limit what or how a tool can be placed on the base nor how or what the base can be made of but only what minimums can be expected. I have an example of what I believe would make a good base, so I’ll start the ball rolling. This is 2 blocks they are 33” X 18” X 2” placed 2” apart. The gap provides space for hardy and pritchel holes and the ‘hold down’ space for wedges or bolt down dogs thru the square holes that are 3” X 3” and are 3” apart and 3” from the top and sides. That is the block, customizations like extra holes, threaded holes or whatever else is added or removed would be just that, a custom application on a standard anvil base. OK now it’s your turn what are your ideas or improvements on this base, or do you have a design? Please submit it here let’s get this going. If we can reach a large enough consensus we should be able to get tool manufactures to take notice. Robert Suter Grapeland, TX

Hello, I’d like to put my two cents worth into this thread. Grants ‘anvil tool retainer’ is an excellent idea and obviously well received. I believe his intention and desire is to make affordable anvil top tooling that is basically designed for hand work. But as he notes the machining and shipping is a deal killer. I believe there is a need for an affordable, well designed and easy to transport anvil. Today we have the ability to communicate with a large number of smiths and the vendors who wish to service them. We should use this to develop an ‘open standard’ anvil base that vendors can depend on to receive their tooling with confidence. What I think should be required is an anvil base that can be built by modern machining or by simple people power, from what is available in their environment across the world. This ‘open standard anvil base’ can provide a basis for well made tooling thereby making a good starting anvil available to a great many under financed smiths and potentially some wonderful tooling for everyone. This sounds like a tall order but is doable and we should do it. It may take some time or we may come to a quick consciences. Judging by the interest in this topic and the many experienced and intelligent smiths and vendors in this field I believe it should not take long. That being said I’d like to offer my ideas to get started. I suppose I should start a new thread in this forum to this end. Robert Suter Grapeland, TX