ornametalsmith

That is "variegated bronze leaf" applied just like gold leaf. It's availabel with different "colored" highlites....red, blue, green and black. It's applied over aluminum in that piece.

looks good i especially like the finsh on the one rod that scrolls on fluer di lis 4th pic...how did you get that mableing of colors??

Just found the Cold Worked section........which I think is a GREAT idea. I'll toss out a few cold worked forged items I make. They are forged aluminum and copper. All forged cold.....(fwiw, .without even being annealed) I've been surprised how far you can forge these non ferrous materials without annealing or working hot. I do have some large scaled fold formed pieces that I do....that are also forged cold......but need to be annealed to open, so they may not be appropriate of this section. Hope it adds something interesting to this section. I really love the new LOOK of IFI, top shelf. Been to long since I've spent a LOT of time on here.........I need to check out all the NEW stuff.
WELL.......I just noticed that these images are HUGE.........I can resize them.......but it does let you see more detail LOL :blink:

:).......I do feel a lil fancy..........and considering I joined in '06...........I need to do some serious posting to catch up with your post count. I appreciate everyone's feedback.

I had my doubts bout the double headed nail........but as some have stated........guess it's possible. BUT the fact that the majority of the ones found DON'T have the double heads....makes me think this ones just a Modified version.....or as one said.....an upgrade at some point. No doubt it would make em easier to remove I guess.......
Have you started that embossing project yet? Hope you've quit picking on the local trees.......and aren't throwing snowballs at'em anymore.
Later Frostilio..............ta ta for now.

bill

Hey Bill, fancy meeting you here. <grin>

About the double headed nails. If they're actually double headed and it's not a time and corrosion or deliberatly "welded" washer I couldn's say WHY use a double headed nail to crucify someone. As I think about it I'm thinking a washer, however it came to still be there maybe 2,000 years after use, is what it is.

Then again in favor of a double head would be ease of removal rather than limiting damage to the body. A double head would make it easy to use a crow foot prybar similar to a modern CROWbar. Maybe something with an end like the claw on a claw hammer and a long handle for leverage. having a head that wasn't imbeded in flesh would make it MUCH easier to get a good grip on with the bar.

At the very least it'd keep the guy removing the nails cleaner which makes me think it might be an innovation by the smith who made them provided he was allowed to salvage used ones. Seriously, you know how blacksmiths are about collecting used metal.

Frosty the Lucky

I'm learning more regarding the history of these spikes/nails. And I'd like to run this by everyone here. And see if anyone else can verify this info, which was forwarded to me by client. Specifically a "double headed nail" similar to carpenter's double headed nails.I know this gets into some sensitive territory..........I'm mainly interested in the "forging challenge" and being accurate. Appreciate any help. IF this turns out to be factual info.....I'm thinking a "spring swage tool" will make these possible. Any ideas regarding that are also appreciated.

"I also found out another historical/archeological fact that is interesting as I am trying to be relatively historically accurate. These nails were used over and over because the metal was too valuable to throw away a nail after a single use (macabre I know!) Thus the nails had a ridge on them like modern ridge carpenter's nails. I have attached a photo of the only archeological evidence that exists in terms of type of nail actually used found intact in an ankle of a crucified individual. In that case the nail was bent and may have been driven into a knot in the wood so it would have been hard to immediately extract so the Romans probably just passed it over. Most crucified individuals were not allowed to be buried by the Romans and left out for wild animals as further humiliation so there is not much actual archeological evidence. "

As usual........IFI has come to the rescue again. I just got a request to make some Crucifixion nails. At first the client thought they'd be 9"-10" long. And to be "correct"....they should be forged from wrought or bronze.
Well I made a few from mild steel and without a header......just to give her an idea what they'd look like. Because I had no photo to go from....the first one I did was started w/ 3/8"sq. .........she then sent me pix.....and it was apparent that I needed to start with at least 1/2" sq. stock. So I whipped out two other samples. Thought I'd toss out this photo of what I made. AND......I'm now wondering if I under quoted these........told her they'd be in the $15ea. range........but only from mild steel. I do have a 2" sq. bar of wrought....that I could draw down.......but it would cost her MUCH more lol. I may do a few in wrought just for me........I NOW want to make one of the crucifixion crosses like you see made from cut nails. I have one I bought in MX.......back in the mid seventies for a guide.

This thread has been invaluable. You guys rock. :)

ahhhh the roast is goin fine......pass the birch beer over HERE. Where's that line forming for the tree huggin dance lessons?. Frostilio........do I need to lead.........of just kick back and wait till that birch puts her limb on my shoulder an winks?

fwiw, here's a clay forging video......about horse heads.

YouTube - Horse head-working out the forging w/Clay

I've been surprised how far you can forge copper....and aluminum.. cold......without even annealing it first. The "secret" if there was one......for me anyway. Was that I did it with a set of tight radius'd fullering dies on the powerhammer. Most impressive was ...a 1/4" thick piece that I forged down to about 1/16" .....before it even BEGAN to split.

And I've done a video on youtube of cold forging aluminum, not annealed first......to extremes.. the only annealing done....was to soften the Fold Formed elements to OPEN them. I've posted this on here before.....but'll add it again for anyone that hadn't seen it.

YouTube - Large Scale Fold FormingFULLresVID

Frostilioooooooooo ,
great to have you back...........is an understatement.

Thoughts and positive vibes on their way to both Jer and Deb. Hang tuff you two.........get well soon my brother, we need ya.

Che,
I just gave your contact info to a young 15 yr. old that is VERY interested. He should be in touch soon. His name is Ben. He's in Ottawa. He's on a mission to find some coal and an anvil in Ottawa. He's gonna freak when he meets you. I think it's great that you eagerly help the beginners.
happy hammering......

don't ya just love it when the "smilies tripped me up". the only thing better is when the smile shoves your ears to the back of your head.

Well I hope you didn't bring my name up over at AM.......wouldn't want you blacklisted. LOL

And your 100% correct .....it does forge very similar to copper. But with 65% copper content..........to be expected. That's also why I took a shot at forging it cold. I think I was able to forge it even a lil further than copper......I don't think I've ever forged copper "razor" thin without a lil split. That NS didn't split at all, much to my surprise.

so much to learn.........so little time

I heard back from Frosty.......and the fella was interested in forging nickel silver(german silver). I'd never forged any before but I had some 1/4" plate that I cut off a chunk, and did a lil YouTube vid of forging it. Because I've never forged it, I thought that it would need to be forged hot ...BUT..... because I've also learned that you can forge MANY non ferrous metals cold..thought I'd give it a try cold...before doin it hot. Forged so nice I never got to the hot part LOL:o Much to my surprise I couldn't make it split, from work hardening, no matter how THIN I forged it. When I was done......the NS was so thin......it would almost shave hair, LOL and it NEVER split.

here's a link to the vid:
YouTube - forgin Nickel Silver

IF there is a trick to forging non ferrous COLD......it's BEST to use hard penetrating blows. Softer, less penetrating, blows only effect the surface of the metal and it work hardens and "flakes off". This "trick" is relevant to another thread on forging aluminum, fwiw.

Personally.......I LOVED the way it forged. Hope that was some help to your friend, Frosty. Great question, IMO. I learned something........again :cool:

Jer,
love what you've done with Bobbie. Looks great. congrats!!!!

Forge it cold and anneal as needed. Why complicate an otherwise easy thing?

Al as long as it isn't one of the more exotic alloys forges easily and is well behaved. The sound changes quite a bit when it begins to work harden so listen for the change in tone. Still, you'll be amazed at how far you can forge it cold.

Here's an example by Bill Roberts "Ornamentalsmith" a member here. Custom Design Metal Arts by Bill Roberts, Artist Metalsmith. Sculpture Gallery

If you have more questions I urge you to contact Bill. I don't know how often he checks in here but there's contact info on his web site.

Heck, say hi anyway, he's a heck of a nice guy.

Frosty

So.......once you've forged the blade to shape. AND then you take it to a normalized temp.(non-magnetic) ..........to harden. What happens to the "grain" size and structure at that elevated temp.? Does it grow, stay the same, become more refined?

fwiw,
here's the foot operated "Smith" gas saver that I've been using for years. Don't know how I got along with out it. Paid for itself many times over.

and a lil video of it being used to make some BOO.

YouTube - Makin' Steel BOO FULLresVid
gas saver starts at 1:29 if you want to skip ahead :D

twisted rebar is beautiful, IMO.
food for thought :cool:

FWIW, Citrisurf is the NON TOXIC stuff that Frostilio mentioned. Stellar Solutions

and to see some amazing forged SS.......check out Giusseppe's work. He gets some killer "temper colors". He doesn't always passivate.
Metalgarden | where to bend next...

and Ries':
Ries Niemi Industrial Artist

happy hammering,

Hello everyone.

My name is John Thorpe and I reside in Orlando, FL with wife and kids. I'm just starting out now with knifemaking and am completely inexperienced.
I'm using stock removal methods until learning to forge. I am highly interested in forging especially since it is so easy to build one. I have a friend that has a large brake drum forge built into a table, and he is going to gift it to me. I appreciate that this site is available and the openness and friendliness that posters and responders have shown. I have much to learn.
If anyone is based in the Orlando, FL or central FL area, and would be willing to have a guest observer sometime, please let me know. I know of no workshops or training provided in my area.

Thanks everyone,

jt

Might be of interest to some. Considering how much of a mess these saws make.......I took an empty 55 gal. drum and fab'd a drop in shelf out of expanded metal....then positioned my chop saw in the center...now ALL of that MESS ends up in the drum. And if/when it gets full......I just dump it and get a new drum.....drop in the expanded metal shelf......and viola. I'll have to see if I've got pix of it....to share.

fwiw, here's a youtube vid of making bamboo with steel pipe. Two different methods.
YouTube - Makin' Steel BOO FULLresVid


Must admit......I've never heard of anyone filling tubing before forging. BUT I have used that technique many times when I'm twisting or bending hollow forms.

goatman's advice if VERY important.

One of IFI's subscribers, Bill Roberts, routinely forges al cold with no problems from scuffed off al.

Frosty

here's mine, (the one on the left). Shop signs are a great way to make a "first impression".


and here's another "shop sign"(right image) that I just finished with some welding students at the local community college. They did the "lion's share" of the work.

This is an interesting thread...... and I'm enjoying reading all the different perspectives.

fwiw, I've been a full time smith since '84. Starting out as a silver/gold-smith and in '89 was introduced to blacksmithing and architectural metalwork. It was then that I learned to make larger jewelry (house jewelry). Since then I've just "added" different metal arts processes to my creative palette.

So .........for me......I do more artistic than basic "cut and weld" fabrication. That being said.......there is "fabrication" in every artistic project I do.

In the beginning ........I got most of my work via friends, word of mouth, "juried" art shows, interior designers. FOR the last 5 years or so.......the internet(website) has been my main SALES tool.

I didn't have any money "set aside" specifically. I found that I was able to "find/get" projects that enabled me to purchase or build tools as they were needed. This was a very controllable approach to growth.

As for "what kind of income" can blacksmithing bring...........as with almost any kind of specialized work......that depends MORE on the individual.
As they say "your mileage may vary"

Same goes for the "hours you work"...... different strokes for different folks.....but that will be reflected in the "degree" of success.

As for retirement............sure. IF you work for someone else and they have a benefits package..........or if you are self employed and start your own 401K or similar "retirement plan". But as was said.......I too...........can't imagine retirement......I'd be happy if I passed away with a hammer or piece of decorative metalwork in my hand. Retirement is for folks that WORK,. When you do what you love.....and love what you do.......I, for one, haven't worked a day....since discovering decorative metalwork.

And as for it being "hard on the body".......if done "with respect for your body" then it could actually be GOOD for you mentally and physically. IF not......it can leave you deaf, blind and/or broken........if not just dead.


I look forward to following this thread.......good questions, Mulciber.