jmeineke

I've been looking into the 'tip over' factor. I've learned that gravity doesn't care if the legs are angled or straight - just where they are at in contact with the earth in relation to the center of gravity of what they are supporting. I think the anvil cg is somewhere a little less than around half way down the body. Mounting it solidly to a heavy table changes things too, because now you have to figure in the cg of the table itself. The entire object then has it's own cg. I think the table will weigh somewhere around 120 to 130 lbs. I'd guess that will put the cg of the whole thing probably somewhere at or below the base of the anvil. The next question then becomes how hard do you want it to be to tip the whole thing over by applying a side force to the top side of the anvil - 50#? 100#? 200#? (though instead of tipping, keep increasing the distance of the legs and it will slide rather than tip). I have no clue what my 20" spread will translate into. Just looking at the picture, my gut tells me it will be fine. I put the steel plate on my welding table and set the legs on it and my gut tells me it looks good too. I'm gonna go for it and see what happens. I'm really not trying to over engineer this thing, but I want it to be safe too. I think it's going to be pretty hard to tip. I'm happy with the design, like the room up top to put hot stuff on, like the fact that I won't be tripping on legs, and I like metal stands. Who knows, though - maybe this whole experience will turn me into a "stump only" man some day. Only one way to find out.

You guys do some serious pounding, that's for sure. I'm not there yet - not even close. Heaviest hammer I own at the moment is 3 lbs. I guess I'll go ahead and build it as planned. I think it will work out okay. I'd rather have the extra space up top and straight legs than a small top and angled legs. Easier to fabricate too. If it doesn't work out I can rip it apart and build something else.

Dang, man - what the heck are you swinging that can move a 515# anvil? You forging with a wrecking ball?

I'm willing to bet that any tripod that isn't bolted down will dance (mine would still qualify as a tripod - angled legs or not). I guess what I really need to know is are my legs far enough apart (currently about 20") to support a 300 lb anvil who's center of gravity is about 30" off the ground. I'm pretty sure that since my legs are at 90 degrees, they aren't going to be getting the kinds of forces on them that angled legs would and that the 2.5" x .5" braces that will be welded up top under the plate will take care of any lateral forces with "plenty of room to spare" so to speak. Lowering the braces might not be a bad idea, though. I could use that to support a tool rest. Heck, now that I think about it that grate could have been mounted nicely on that 'T'. Ah well...

Decided to learn Google Sketchup today and draw out my idea for the stand. What a cool app! Bit of a learning curve, but 30 minutes of video tutorials and you're pretty well set. The anvil is to scale too, but I couldn't figure out how to chamfer in the heel on the sides. It's good enough to show the size on the table, though and "anatomically correct" in size. After seeing it all together drawn to scale, I think it will be plenty stable to let the legs stay straight and not mess with angling them. The cross braces underneath are 2.5" x .5" steel and the legs are 3" square tube. Table will be 20" x 21" x 3/4"). Casters will probably be added on at some later point, maybe I'll just weld a bar to it so it can be moved by a dolly. Not sure yet. The stand may be a bit tall too - the avatar in the pictures is 6' tall. I kind of like anvils that are a bit higher than the knuckle recommendation, though, so I'll tack it all up and see if I like the height. It's a lot easier to make it shorter than taller Please let me know what you think of the design - BE BRUTALLY HONEST. I'm sure I've overlooked something. NOTE --- The anvil will be secured to the plate, but that is not shown in the sketch.

Yeah, my neighbors hate it when I howl - is nothing sacred anymore? You have to agree that it is a nice looking hardy tool on the end of that anvil, though

Good point. Yeah, guess a part of me was hoping it wasn't cast. The grate would have been an kind of cool to have as part of the stand. But I can make tool holders, so not a big deal. I took that grate back to the yard today and did a swap out. Had to pay $20 more, but I've got some nice 3/4" plate - 20" x 21" (bout 90 lbs). I wanted some extra room around the anvil base to work with. Should turn out to be a decent stand when it's all said and done.

Yeah, it is, but 1) I like the looks of metal stands - just a personal preference, and 2) I was also planning on incorporating some heavy duty casters on hinges that can be flipped into place when I need to move it. I move stuff around quite a bit depending on what I'm working on and thought the casters would help in that regard. Just about everything I have right now is movable. I do have a smaller 153 lb anvil that I probably will mount on wood, though. Even my welding table is portable - just 70 lb sheet of 1/4" steel that I set on top of a wood table that sits on 1000 lb capacity (each) saw horses. For even smaller welding stuff & fit up, I have a T-slotted table from a radial arm drill and a small 12" x 20" steel C channel that I can throw on a bench. When I need the space, the board and the plate go up against a wall and the horses are hung from a rafter. The C channel slides under my workbench. My gas forge, still a work in progress, also has wheels. That's just the way I roll

I thought about designing a support system underneath it and still have the anvil on it - basically weld it to a 'T' between the post or even make a square frame that rests on the posts like other's suggested and then put the grate on top of that. The anvil wouldn't fall if the grate failed, but I don't want to mess with something that isn't ductile. If it were weldable and not brittle, it would be cool to incorporate it in the stand. As for using it as a tool rack or a hot mover, yeah, it would work good as those things but it's probably not a good fit for my particular needs. The scrap yard I go to will accept returns on non-custom cut orders, so I'll probably just take it back and get a nice piece of 1/2" thick plate today. One more thing I forgot to mention - the spark test produced what I wouldn't normally call 'sparks' - more like a short spray of striaght, dull orange trails. Not sure if that makes sense or not, but it didn't spark at all like steel does. I'm guessing that's probably the final nail in the "is it cast iron?" coffin. Many, many thanks to all who responded. On a different note, what do you all think of keeping the straight legs instead of angling them out? I know it's not going to be as stable laterally, but I'd rather not be tripping on them. I could build them out a bit and give them a wider stance, but I'd like keep them straight so I'm not tripping on them. Seems like as long as I have enough girth as you'd have with a stump it would probably be okay, right?

I did the drill test that you suggested. I think it's cast iron, but the chips were more grey than black. When I rolled the chips between my fingers they crumpled up into a powder. When I broke the tack welds (see pics), there was grey, sandy looking metal where the welds broke off. Pretty sure this all means it's cast, right?

It has a permanent place in my shop now - I'm finding all kinds of things to use it for. Never knew what I was missing!

This is probably a stupid question, but Is there any way i could do a test to tell the difference?

I was having a hard time finding the right size plate, saw that grate and didn't even think about what it was made of. After I realized last night it was cast, I had kind of hoped that mounting the legs directly underneath the anvil would take the "embrittlement" risk out of it, but yeah, welding steel to cast is still going to be an issue. I'm not married to the idea of incorporating it into the stand, so I'll just head back to the yard today to look for a piece of plate. Thanks everyone. You may have just saved my feet!

Went to the scrap yard today and picked up some steel to (finally) get to work on my anvil stand. I came across a grate on the ground that looked like it would be perfect to not only mount my anvil but also to hold hardies, hammers, etc.. I'd still like to put some racks on the sides for additional hammers (some day I'll have more than 2 Also, the posts will be beveled and angled out 30 degrees when I do the permanent welds to the base. I plan on moving the main supports under the anvil itself, so the back two supports will be directly below the heel and the front under the front part of the heel. The grate will overhang under the horn and will be a little storage My concern is that after I got all this stuff home, I realized that the grate is cast. It sure looks like it should hold up under some abuse, but is it anything I should be concerned about? Also, would you do anything different? I'm thinking a piece of plywood between the anvil and the grate, or maybe a piece of plate steel. Anyone have any ideas for improvements? Will that cast iron be okay?

Hello & Welcome to IFI!

Ouch. Yeah, that'd be a hefty jump in expenses.

Not trying to pry or anything, but what about renting a house? With the slump in the economy, there are lots of houses sitting empty that are comparable to an apartment in terms of price even with utilities factored in (at least in my neck of the woods)... Just something to think about - can't hurt to look in the paper to see what's available. For sure, though, find a club and start getting to know some folks.

Looks real nice! I like the idea of the bar for a dolly.

Well, today I decided to take my 3 year old and one of my older boys to the railroad tracks for a walk. We've done this several times since we've lived here, but this was the first time I took our youngest. I wasn't scouting for spikes, metal or stuff that falls of trains - just out with the boys taking a walk (the 3 year old LOVES trains, and I knew he'd love throwing some rocks around and walking the rails). I bought some spikes from McMaster-Carr when I learned (on IFI, in fact) that picking up the ones on the ground was actually stealing. Today I was reminded of the other reality - walking the tracks is illegal too. Long story short, we were walking along, I looked down the tracks and saw someone walking toward us about 1/4 a mile away. My heart kind of sunk when, as the person got closer, I saw the shiny badge. Police don't generally patrol railroad tracks on foot, so I kind of figured out what was about to happen. I was right. We were politely informed that we were trespassing, the law states that you can't be within 30' of either side of the tracks and that we needed to leave. According to the officer, there are a bunch of teenagers around here who also like to use the tracks too, but not for peaceful Sunday afternoon strolls... We apologized, thanked him and left the area. Now I'm not completely ignorant of the fact that walking tracks is trespassing, but never thought it would be an issue around here; especially since I see people on those tracks all the time. Guess I figured it was a bit like going a smidgen over the speed limit - technically wrong, but generally not an issue. I imaging it probably wouldn't have been an issue if it weren't for the few that were causing trouble (isn't that typically how it works?). So, no more walks on the tracks for us. The real bummer for me was that it was something I enjoying doing as a kid and have a lot of fond memories of. I was hoping my own kids would have those same memories to look back on. Walking tracks, for me at least, has always been as American as baseball and apple pie... Times they are a changing...

I'm trying to avoid FeeBay. I'd much rather see a portion of the sale go to IFI than them. If it doesn't sell on here, then CL will probably be the next avenue. I'm kicking around the idea of $500 - that would put it at just shy of 1.62 / lb. I think that would still be a good deal for someone who needs a shop anvil, and they shouldn't have any problems getting their money (and probably then some) back out of it when / if they decide to sell it.

Thanks to everyone who posted, voted and/or offered their opinions. I agree that the A&H is the more desirable of the two in terms of collector value & rarity, but I'm going to base my decision solely on their merits as tools. The Ajax will be the more versatile of the two and will better serve me in the long run, so right now I'm pretty much set on keeping it. That said, what do you all think a fair asking price would be for the Arm & Hammer? My bathroom scale puts it at 309 lbs. I live in Anvil Alley, so I know it's not going to fetch as much here as it would elsewhere, but it's a bit rare to find an Arm & Hammer at that size even around here. When I do get around to selling it (still struggling with letting it go) I'll try to do it here first on the tailgating section and donate a portion back to IFI if it sells.

Maybe it's just the drive to get as close to the original as you can (e.g., one solid piece) that causes people to spend the money on HF rod and the time welding / milling / grinding - to me it was a matter of restoration versus just making it useful again (which, in and of itself, is a whole other debate). That was the reason I guess I went with the welding approach, but is it superior? Maybe. By a lot? Don't know. Worth the effort? To me yes, but you do have a valid point about making a cast ASO or a remnant of a no face CL anvil body useful. I guess both approaches have their problems. Bolting I would think would require a good match between surfaces. Not everyone has access to a milling machine or a surface grinder, and getting a good flat surface by hand isn't easy, then there's the drilling, tapping, countersinking, etc... I don't know what kind of tolerances would be acceptable, but I can't imagine you'd want your surface to vary too much. Then again, maybe torquing the thing down will close those gaps. Maybe gaps don't matter too much. I'll fire one back at you - have you ever bolted one up before? If so, how does it stack up against a solid piece with a good tool steel face?

For what their worth, here are my thoughts: From what I recall reading (maybe I just dreamed it? ), bolted on will never quite be the same as a solid mass and there will be energy loss between the plates when hammering. But then again, if you don't have a welder or no exp., it may be the only way to go. Maybe done right the difference may not be all that big a deal. If I were going to do a bolt on, I'd pay a visit to a machine shop to have the anvil face milled flat before I did anything. Any unevenness, dishes, etc., I imagine would make a big difference in energy transfer from hammer blows. Also, I'd make sure the tool plate is good and flat too. Once I was sure the faces were true, I'd then have them drill and tap the holes - exactly where and how many, I don't know, but I'd want counter-sunk holes for flat-head socket cap screws to get a flush mound and would then just work around them when hammering. I suppose you could weld the holes and grind flush, but then you've entered into the whole 'don't weld on the face' realm.

Thanks, Phil - that's very interesting. So basically work-hardened 2110 gives an 80% rebound. I wonder what a cap with 1105 would produce? Anyone have info on that? Also, that's some interesting info in that other link you posted (namely http://www.celtickno...ody-rods.html). I wonder if 1102 would be an even better choice on top of 2110 since it has similar properties to 1105 but is even harder?