youngdylan

Yeah, I use an electric winch now. Sure makes life easier if for no other reason than it stops the chains getting tangled in the work. They've got PTOs but we don't seem big on using them over here. Actually maybe some of the more anorak inclined off road enthusiats use them but they're a world all of their own. It's just a tool to me!

Bart Yeah they've kinda done that with a lot of the other landrovers in the family. That said they still make the "defender", its a true utility vehicle aimed at farmers etc. Basic one has zero luxuries though some of the top end ones are "ponced up" a bit to sell to the "image conscious"

Don't know if our colonial cousins have landrovers over there? Amongst the many wonderful things about them is that the box section chassis goes from the very front "bumper" to the back one. This is real usefull for bolting a vice to when out on site.The military ones have two lugs on each bumper (fender???). These are real strong forgings and are use to attach lifting chains when carring them (2Tonne) by helicopter. It's easy to rig up a boom arm as I've shown and tie it to the rear bumper. I've no idea what the SWL is but I've lifted my 200kg anvil with me sat on it as a "trial by combat" and I regularly use it to install 1/4 Tonne gates. Being landrover and being "bolt on" by design the non military versions have pre drilled holes that these lugs can be fitted to. I'm sure the lugs are readily available or easily fabricated. The rig comes into its own when when taking gates to site by towing a trailer. At site the trailer is wheeled in front of the 'drover, they're picked up and driven to where they go. It's then easy to manouvere the gates to position because you can see where you're going. It's a good idea to use wooden blocks to "lock the front suspension" but not essential. Saved myself a fortune over the years. Modern trucks don't seem to have the chassis going fully front to back but I'm sure most people reading this can weld!

Actually Bob I would say rather than listening to opionated people like me, go and have a play with as many different types as yo can then make your mind up. I'm always the first to admit I'm biased.

Bob Re the 4 hammer options I'm still digesting picture of Harolds and the new Kinyon. Of my 2 flavours I'd wouldn't recomend building my KA75ish as a first one. It needs relatively accurate machining of the guides and yokes (good sized lathe and mill work). If misaligned it will tend to jam up and loose speed. It took me a lot more time than than I initially figured. The conventional Kinyon can be made with more or less a drill and MIG. Good points re my KA75; cylinders pulling down rather than pushing = much better control, small fooftprint, bad points limited access because of the guides, stroke limited to 250mm or hammer gets too tall. I'd say say if it's a first hammer go for a C throat. This isn't an issue with me because I've got the other Kinyon and an Anyang 40Kg. Also worth noting the new Kinyon pulls rather than pushes. Because I'm a big fan of this, I'm quite intringued by this design. An anside I think Ron Kinyon should be awarded a medal for his service to blacksmithing. There must be 1000's of them in home garages etc all over the world. At the time I built mine there were none of the mechanical designs around and Anyangs weren't imported to the UK (Sahinlers were but were too expensive for me at the time) Re valving, my things are more "add ons" rather than a different valving than the Kinyon. They tend to complicate rather than simplify because the top of my hammer looks like something from an Alien film. The original Kinyon design is the simplest and his pulling cylinder in his new design means you don't have to use the bypass and regulator I mentioned in one of my posts. I'm always a big fan of going simple so it might be an idea to look at this. It might also be worth speaking to John Larson, he seems to get quite short strokes with a good wallop from his and he might recomend other valving arrangements. To me the fewer moving parts of air hammers mean less to go wrong; always a good engineering principle. That said, as mentioned the tup/ cylinder rod connection is a weak point on the original Kinyon. Air hammers rock

Bob Guess I'm gonna go for the record. If I get enough I may achieve reprobate status ... maybe even "outlaw". Would be good to know who's doing them cos I could suss out their point of view and post more things to get their underwear all a flutter. On a more serious note ..... re air/mechanical one of the other advantages to self contained air is being able to work wide thin stock both ways, i.e going from drawing down 100 x 12 mm with the 100mm up then flipping it over to work the 12mm, all without having to make any adjustment. Kinyons aren't quite that versatile but I've got my pilot connected to a foot pedal that quickly moves it up or down with a touch of the foot. With hindsight I probably wouldn't have made my Kinyons, I'd have borrowed the money and bought maybe one of the smaller Anyangs and used it to earn the money to buy another. At the time I was just starting out and had more time than work. Wether you make a mechanical or Kinyon you're gonna invest a lot of time doing it well (only way to do things). If it's a hobby thing this probably is no problem. If you're running a workshop is not always the best thing to do in terms of economics. I'm a natural born inveterate tinkerer but these days I'm really having to rein myself in. These days I kinda take the approach it's better to use the shop to earn a living plus the money to buy ready made (reliable) toys tools. I've spent too much time in the past making tools that make tools when I should have been making stuff to pay for the shop. That said whilst it might not be the most cost effective thing to make one yourself, it's really good learning experience. I knew absolutely zero about pneumatics when I bulit the first Kinyon. Still don't know a right lot about it now but what I did allowed me to get to grips with hydraulics (air and oil are both fluids) and built a 15Tonne electrohydraulic press ...... and then cos I'm a tool geek I bought a 30T one. Hey I would have thought after over 100 years someone would have decided by now which hammer was better Air hammers rock!

apology accepted

I'll have both thank you very much Grant! Bryce, have a peek at my website. I do a lot of "curvilinear flowing" work. All my presentation drawings are done freehand. Flat CAD elevations look utterly lifeless. All work is 3D and a curve made from round bar looks so different in the flesh than it's "silhouette". I use TurboCAD (autoCAD ish) .... its cheap and easy to use, for some of the more "engineering" side of things and as a geometric tool (eg working on helical staircases) but sometimes you gotta to doodle. All my ""scrolls"" are made sketching in chalk on the bench and slowly bending freehand (no jigs ... yet). I don't get hung up about following the lines exactly, it's all about how the steel looks, especially when blending radii.

Yeah sure do. I think Grant said you need 25cfm per hundredweight. Air behaves as a fluid and thats roughly and readily 2 baths full of air per minute. Can't see a bath being filled in 30 sec through a 1/2" bore pipe!

Actually I'm sure I picked up somewhere there was a scouts badge or test or woggle or whatever for something blacksmithy years and years ago. Maybe you remember Night Owl.

Hey ladies doing the negatives. I just love poking wasps nest for fun. Lets see how many negs you can do when you really let rip ... badge of honour and all that. Go girly boy go. Better still reveal yourslf . ... oops sorry ....forgot.... old ladies got no danglers.

So THAT'S what you look like!

good point Jason. Over here in the UK we had a few manufactures making smallish air hammers, eg Alldays and Onions etc. Kinda explains why mechanicals aren't that common, other than Wallace and Grommit style (Blackers) I've got 2 home brewed Kinyons (25kg ish conventional and one 50kg ish sorta like a KA75) and an Anyang 40kg. The Anyang seems to pack about the same wallop per blow as the 50kg "Kinyon" but runs a bit faster so does more work. Despite being slower the Kinyons still do a lot of work and are indespensible. They're really close to another and it's a joy to do a job where they're all set up with the right tooling and you flit from hammer to hammer all in one heat. A mates done a video, when I can work out how to get it off the camera onto you tube I' do so.

Lovely work Rory and great photos Pneumatic air craft fitters rivet guns (not pop rivet guns) are brilliant for jobs like this. The "snap" fits over the rivet head and a small (couple kg) "bucking bar" is placed on the back of the rivet on the inside. Squeeze the trigger and because of Newtons 3rd The back of the rivet flattens instead of the head. http://www.aircrafts...ivetgun2602.php Wonderful tools (aren't all tools). They are given sizes by the number of X's. A 4X will probably do a 5mm steel rivet cold. My biggest is a 7X and will do a 6mm stainless cold (sure makes the hand tingle though). The rear of the rivet can be set into a c/s hole if required. One wonderful advantage for a job like this is that you can hold the bucking bar square to the back of the rivet. Some jobs just can't easily be done any other way, eg : http://www.verdigris...etter%20box.htm I'm not sure if you can see from the photos on my site but all the rivets heads on the front are as perfectly round as the day the manufacturer made them. All the hammer marks are on the inside. You just can't reach down with a punch / rivet set down to the bottom! First time I used one I thought they used magic as a means of working .... and I used to be a Physics/Maths teacher!! ..... I still think it's magic. Professional quality kit costs a few hundred quid but good used ones regulary go for £50 ish on flea bay. Simple can't recomend them highly enough, definitely in the "top ten" of all my tools. Obviously air powerhammers are #1

No I don't understand you. If I was in your shoes and I posted work based on someone else's design on a forum , especially work more or less copied, I would have the common courtesy to acknowledge where I got the design from. When challenged about it I wouldn't react the way you have,I would have instead issued an apology. In my previous post I said I wouldn't have mind if you had admitted where you got the work from. Perhaps that would have been a good enough signal how to respond to me. Instead you choose to attack me???? When I saw you had replied I was expecting an apology before I opened your post. Is this your idea of an apology? Since you admit you are doing this for commercial reasons you are clearly stealing from me. The concept of copyright is very clearly defined in most legal sytems. You say "I didn't mean to stole anything from anybody " but you have publically admitted to stealing my design and still don't have the good grace to publically apologize. Merely copying other peoples work without modifying it highlights your complete lack of creativity imagination and design skills. If you carry on copying work you are shooting yourself in the foot because you will never be able to design your own work.

Does this mean bang for buck, air hammers are "better". I use "better" in quotes because I'm well aware there's so many variables to consider what makes a "better" hammer. I'm no expert on production line economics but there's plenty of small (50kg ish) self contained manufacturers. They have pretty complicated castings (and machining to to tight tolerances) to do. This doesn't seem to make them too costly to produce.

Jason, thanks for the input. I'm not up on steams but I'm pretty sure Grant Sarver (nakedanvil) describes Kinyons as essentially similar in principle to steams and I can see why. John N (Massey UK) has also said that the best wallop comes from external air (steam) hammers. I'd pretty much stake my house on what these guys say re air hammers ...... sooooo I guess the real question is why can (not do) home brewed Kinyons run slow. ..... I've never used a big BLU but i have their video on power hammer techniques and yeah I've gotta say it does seem to run slow and lack wallop, might be wrong. My first version did but I'd no reference to compare it to for a few years until I had a go on a "proper" self contained. After this I started to look at it in detail. As standard it simply doesn't BREATHE (any engine tuners know the importance of gas flowing). Many reasons but from my limited tinkering the main reasons are 1. The ports on the cylinders are way too small for the air flow of these hammers. I drill and tap mine out to the next size 2. Some people use way too small a main valve, same argument about air flow. Can't "bore" them out, you have to bite the bullet. BUY A BIG ONE ..... they're not cheap. 3. The main valve is too far from the cylinder. If thin air lines are used this cause a big pressure differntial acrosss the line. 4. Similarly, people use way too long a airline to the exhaust valve. Since the pressure in this line is at a much lower pressure (varies from say 125 psi to atmospheric along its length) and flowing the same amount of air as went into the cylinder, it's so important it's not restricted. (I think this is the same reason the scavage bore in my Triumph sickle oil pump is much bigger than the supply bore). A good analogy with air cicuits is high current electricity flowing across a small resitance can drop a lot of volts. Take account of the above when doing a Kinyon and it makes a big difference I don't know what valving arrangement John Larson uses on his ironkiss hammers but they've got a pretty good reputation amongst the more respected in the professional user community. His recent videos seem to show them running pretty fast as well. I'd love to hear his thoughts on airflow, valving etc ...... you listening John?

As I freely admit I'm biased to air hammers but kinda curious why no-one makes mechanicals if they're "better" than air? There's plenty of small self contained to be had new (Anyang, Sahinler, Say Mak, Striker). Can it really be cost? Both these and mechanicals have an anvil, tup, guide system, flywheel, motor (bigger and more expensive for air), speed reduction and frame. Essentially (re cost) that leaves a linkage/clutch system versus 2 pistons, rings, conrod (+boring out 2 large cylinders) and valving .... must be similar in cost? There's been no new mechanicals (that I know of) made for decades. If they're of a similar cost and "better" surely market forces would mean someone would be making them? No-one is..... doesn't that say something?

120? too small a main valve? too small a cylinder? too restricted air lines? too little psi?too small a compressor to keep up with the cfm required? watch John Larson's video to see how fast Kinyon style air hammers can run. Will post a video on you tube of mine when worked out how and you can get your stop watch out. 400???????????????????????????????which hammer is this 400???????????

Arftist This is probably right if you're only using a 250mm stroke cylinder. I always recommend going for at least a 300mm stroke for the little additional cost. If you make the pilot height easily adjustable you can always get full strokes for most height tooling. My Kinyon actually uses a 400mm stroke for this reason and because I've rigged up a circuit where I can use it as a single blow "treadle". The more the tup travels and picks up speed the faster it hits. I guess air v mechanical is always gonna polarize opinion. I've only ever built or used air ........ and I'm very biased Air hammers rock

Bob One disdavantage of building an air hammer I forgot to mentioned is the costs of the parts. Good quality air stuff isn't cheap. It's designed with production lines etc in mind. It can't fail .... too expensive if it did. You occassionally see some of this kit on ebay but not that often. Over here you're probably looking from stockists at £100-£150 cylinder (pounds UK) £40-60 for the pilot £75-150 for the main valve (go big, it's worth it) £50 -75 for the filter (regulator) lubricator and depending on how it's done, £25-75 for the plumbing. Arftist said parts become obsolete, I'm not sure about that at all, there is a class of components called VDMA (not a brand) which use industry standard dimensions/spec and are more or less interchangable across brands. They are meant for production engineering after all. ANY delays in replacing them are utterly intolerable. That said there may be some older more obscure stock lurking out there I think I said in one of my posts make sure it can BREATHE If you can get the ear of John Larson he's the man for Kinyon based hammers Having said they don't fail, one point to watch is where the rod connects to the tup. If you do much cold work this can snap. Air hammers rock

John thought u might want to know some of the links on your site don't work. Clicking on the text is ok but the links on the images don't work

If you've got plenty spare material/ time on your hands try hardening some in oil, some in water, temper at purple (ish) then smack the **** out of it. Commonly known as "Suck it and See". Spark test may give an indication of carbon content but sucking it gives you more of an idea how useful it may be. I lucked out a while back. Bought 3m of 63mm rod from a scrap yard many years ago. At the time I was after mild(ish) steel but on a whim thought I do some alchemy heat treating and see what happend. No idea what it is but it doesn't crack when quenched in water, temper it at purple and it's tough as old boots, very useful for making small stakes etc. Would like to know what flavour it is but don't need to know (and never will). Still dining out on it.

Monster,not offended and yeah I take all that in and wouldn't have minded at all if he had mentioned that fact that it was based on my design or indicated that it was done for a hobby. I guess cos I'm doing for a living, I knda assume everyone else is. Hell we all see work we like and modify. Done it myself, heres an example on my site http://www.verdigris...eel%20gates.htm Difference is I've given credit to the original designer Posting it on a blacksmith forum and claiming as your own is a differnt thing. This isn't the worst I've come across. I found a website that had lifted my photographs of my website and was claiming the work as their own. The comment about solicitors in the post above was just one of those things to say in the heat of the moment. I was however going to take legal action about the rip off commercial website though. Threatened them with it and they eventually removed my photos. That sort of thing really really p*****s me off. ........ Calmed down now PS Thanks for the compliment but I don't see myself as talented, let alone a blacksmith. I'm kinda like you; I just love messing with tools. The designs more or less follow from that. Not really a blacksmith but not really a fabricator. "Geek (me not you) who plays around with tools and metals for a living" doesn't fit on too many forms.

I guess I like it, then again I'm bound to; you've almost totally ripped off (stolen?) my work. No imagination then? Couldn't you at least modify it just a little? Actually the only thing you've changed is you didn't give the slight dome/3D effect to some of the curves. Beyond you? http://www.verdigris...%20railings.htm http://www.verdigris...0balustrade.htm Well they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Me? I just see it more as thieving. I wonder what my solictor would say.