lupiphile Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hey there, Thanks for all the forewarning. I really am taking all this seriously. I have a working hammer that suits my needs pretty well, though Its my ambition to get into some bigger stuff, hence why I'm thinking of investing in what I know to be a project. Maybe that big work is 3 years and 10'000 dollars off, maybe sooner and less, I don't know yet, but I'm steeling myself. I'm doing my best to not spend a huge amount before I know what work is needed, once again because I've lurked about this forum long enough to learn from y'all's heartbreak. I do need to have somekind of power source to be able to determine some of the problems, also it needs to sit on something to work on it effectively.Three phase of some kind would be a handy thing to have available, so I'm not hugely worried, and as for the foundation I'm thinking something along the lines of a timber corral and enough concrete to make my floor level(obviously there's a limitation to how thin you can pour the stuff in good faith) nothing permenent, nothing (too)serious. Space is currently not to huge of an issue, though we'll see. It's also my ambition to get a new shop before winter, as my shop is completely unheatable(42' uninsulated cielings, busted windows,no real walls, oh my!) so I shant invest hugely in immovable things like a foundation(but maybe steels the way to go?) Larry I'm sorry to hear about the 4b, I had been following your progress with the whole install thread, best of luck. Kerry, I might just take you up on the offer. I'd love to get a good look and even better information from someone so much more wisened to these sort of conundrums. When you guys mentioned mark, you weren't talking about mark krause were you? I had a blast talking to him at the conference last year and I'd hate to hear he'd been unfairly subjected to the machinations of the man. It seems like everone I know has had legal troubles recently. Anyway thanks y'all, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpotter Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I have spent alot of years working on old machine tools and the thought of buying a tool that is 70 years old that hits itself scares me. The amount of worn and broken stuff in that hammer could be insane. Production shops that run these things usually run them to death and replace them or at least they used to. I have worked on large machine tools that have come out of factories and they have been run 24 7 for decades and there is no useful life left in them. If you have access to machine tools and can remake the parts then getting one of these hammers might be ok but if you have to pay someone you will be in for a shock. I have thought about building a power hammer, I have built a beefed up kinyon but I am thinking about building a serious hammer but in the end I think you would be better off with an iron kiss or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Hey this is quickly turning into a much more interesting thread than I originally intended. Larry, I absolutely believe you and its not without serious heart palpitations that I've considered such an undertaking. I also know you've had, what could affectionately be described as crappy dealings with mr.wallace, and its through my awareness of such things that I'm taking everything about these hammers with a grain of salt, fully expecting for everything to be a worse case scenario. But I know myself, and Iknow I'd never get around to justifiying the 13000 dollars or more it would cost for a "plug and play" 2b. At 7000 dollars for 2b's FOB and a 350$ shipping quote(My best friend is an owner-operator, of an 18wheeled- flatbed) I decided to jump. hell they'd scrap out at 2700 or so excluding the motors, and I'm sure I could do better if I sold the parts piece meal. It just seems like a wise investment even if it ruins my life........you know you'd do it. At this point I'm resigned, so maybe everone could share their nazel horror stories....I'm not being sarcastic. that would make for some really interesting reading. Take care, y'all, matt Just so you know... No I wouldn't... I wouldn't be a buyer at $7000... Not because the value is not there... Its not a horrible price really.. The parts hammer is worth a couple grand and so that leaves the "good" hammer at around $5000... But the reality is there are better choices. I have a 135lb (60KG) Say Mak I bought brand new for $8800... Thats about the equivalent of a 2B ( a 2B is about 165lbs with the die, the Say Mak 135lbs without the die) and a brand new machine.... There is a one peice 2B here in Seattle that runs that could be bought for $7000 (It needs work too but at least its not broke) You could buy a running Anyang 165lb hammer for $6000-$10000 depending on how old... The reason why I wouldnt spend $7000 is its a gamble and at $7000 I dont think its a good gamble.. If they where $4000.... Id say what the heck, take a chance... AT $7000 i would look at saving a few more bucks and buying a running machine... There is a very real chance you will have to spend far, far more money to make one of those hammers run that what its worth or what you could buy a good hammer for... I am starting to feel like Im beating a dead horse so I'll leave it at that... I know you didn't ask me.. But if you did I'd say dont buy them... And that has nothing to do with Bruce Wallace... It would go for if anyone owned them.. Now I'll also say if I was able to tear into the hammer, with the little experience I have I could look it over and know about what it would cost to repair... If I felt safe knowing the repairs where minor and I could handle them AND I was in the market for a 2B for myself I might consider $7000 for the pair... But only if I really needed one and I didnt have any other choice.. at $7000 its not a deal, its top money for basket case machines... Its a gamble to say the least... It sounds like you have made up your mind that this is what you are going to do... And if you have and your going to buy them... I am happy to help and offer any assistance I can.. I wont say "I told you so" if it gets ugly....If it goes really well and works out grand I'll gladly eat a little crow.... I'll also put out there I have owned 7 self contained hammers and over 25 Steam, Air or mechanical ones... I dont claim to be an expert but I am not just spewing words either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Matt are you Kate D.'s friend that I talked to a the Bam conf? Anyway to answer your question. I built my phase converter 20 years ago used a 15 hp motor. Total cost then was less than $100 if your a good scrounger can be done for around $200 now. I run 7 1/2 horse and under with no problems. I have drawings to show you how it's put together. The big advantage is you can buy lots of other 3 phase equipment cheap. Vfds are expensive and can be finiky and if I'm not mistaken you need one for each machine. You've taken on a huge project. Let me know if I can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Thank you Larry, I believe you speak from a sound frame of mind, and with a position fortified with the logic of experience. It's an incredible thing to have such easy access to such a wide body of knowledge. You're absolutely right, it is a risk, a rather large one and with all of the proviso's I've been given, I will gracefully except a passel of I told ya so's, when this turns to a life destroying mess, so long as y'all will still help me out by giving me sound advise. even If I'm a stubborn fool who doesn't always listen. That's more than fair. And If it does work out, any of you all are cordially invited to my shop. I'll buy the beer.(hell if it goes horribly, I'll still buy the beer, just more of it) I do have some background on these hammers. Mr wallace had been involved with the maintaining of several of the hammers, including this one in the years leading up to the plants liquidation(incidentally, kerry, from baltimore) and this one was one of the last working on the floor. It has air leaks all over the place, and that is, according to bruce, mind you, the primary detrimate to the hammer. I have mark's book on the operation of self contained hammers, so I under stand "air leaks all over the place" could be, infact a death knell for this hammer, but on the up side the company thought the hammer was worth enough to spend 2000$ dollars on the motor, a few thousand for bruce to machine a new tup, and for bruce to machine new guides. Incidentally the new guides seemed to fix the parelellarity(sp?) issue and the new tup was never installed. Bruce has kindly proffered to give me that new tup as part of the deal. He seems to enjoy the fact I'm in philly and has thus far has been extremely accountable. He shall be here when the hammer is installed and has invited me to his shop to give me a bit of a run down on the parts of this hammer. it's also a lobdell, so its not necessarily a hundred years old. Its not as if it was dragged out of a river or anything, but that being said, I'm ready for a project. I have access to a very large lathe, and your standard size bridgport knock off mill. A master machinist I'm not but I'm comfortable around them both. Like I said I don't need this hammer running tomorrow, and I intend to fix it right. I'm very patient. On the three phase, I am going to wait until I have the motor in front of me to decide between a rotory, or a vfd. I like the idea of having three phase capibility at my shop but a vfd seem to be a little cheaper/ feature laden. I'm not hugely comfortable with electric issues, and don't like hiring people, so vfd are attractive, but Im sure i could figure it out, if the cost savings made it that much more enticing. I've yet to come across a cheap, large, three phase motor. And no, I can't say I've been to anykind of blacksmithing event excepting the last conference in memphis. And I must admit, rather sheepishly, I wouldn't have gone to that if I hadnt've been paid to be there( I got charged with picking up the yellin gate, for clare) I'm not too much of a joiner. Peacock, thank you, for offering help as well. I can assume you've been through this before?. Alright, back to work now. Thanks y'all, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 The picture you paint there sounds a lot better than what I was picturing I guess I assumed the hammer was broke and pulled from service. A new tup if properly built is probably a $3000+ part for a 2b. Alright well here is too your new hammer! Let us know what we can do to help :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 Well thank you much, Larry. I still intend to expect the worst and hope for the best, it's my nature. If I can become a little more technologically adept, in the next few weeks, I'll post pictures of this whole mess. Thank y'all for the help, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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