Jump to content
I Forge Iron

three phase nazel question


Recommended Posts

It looks as if I might be buying 2 2b's in about a week or so(one workingish, one more for parts. When it rains, it pours, right?) , and aside from my piles of anxiety about such a large puchase, there are many logisical and technical concerns as well. One of which is the three phase issue. My currant shop is hopefully temporary and I rent but a small part of a large building, thusly the cost and justification of having three phase installed are just about non-existent. BUT I had been told, that, as the motor powering the hammer is effectively powering a compressor I'd have to size the phase converter to something like double its intended output. This also would be a huge expense(I mean a 14 hp rotary phase converter I don't even know where to find) So all you older, wiser, smashers-of-bits how'd ya'll do it? I've heard about that valve modification to help the hammer not start under load, but I really, REALLY don't want to risk burning out the motor on this(though I suppose I will have two). Thanks for your time in advance. Matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Three phase power for a 2B is really not what you should be worried about.. its only a 7.5HP motor, a 15HP RPC is more than enough and easy to come by, can be bought new for around $1000 from Anderson Converter But really there are lots of options... at 7.5HP you could just buy a single phase motor.. although a 1100 RPM single phase motor would likely cost more than the RPC... Or you could by a VFD, which depending on how old the motor on the hammer is would likely be my choice..

As for the "Mod" to ease start up... its not really a modification.. it involves removing a air plug and installing a valve in its place... 15 Mins work and $40 worth of parts at any hardware store... Hardly what I would consider a modification...

Id say be worred about getting the hammers and getting them set up... Power is solvable

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You should investigate electronic inverters that will provide 3-phase from single phase and give many bonus features.
The insulation in some older motors will not tolerate the voltage switching spikes normal with inverters and you may have to replace the motor with a inverter compatable motor. a 7.5HP inverter should be your starting point. Check with http://www.automationdirect.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How much would a vfd run? and how would that rectify the three phase issue? It is a fairly old motor(60's) but my understanding is that the shop that currently houses theses hammers spend around the order of 2000$ dollars rebuilding is motor about 2 years ago. Oh and I am worried about getting it and getting it set up, fear not.I'm really worried. I do that well, worrying. My other concerns I 'll probably mount to another post, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have 2 VFD's running a 2hp lathe and a 5hp press. They both run fine. For the bigger motor, you will have to de-rate the VFD because of the loss of incoming amps from 3 phase power. So your 7.5 HP motor would need a 10HP VFD to run properly. They are also using "soft start" technology. I get my VFD's from http://www.factorymation.com/

Call and talk to a salemen. They are very helpfull.

Congrats on the 2 hammers!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you go with a phase converter go with a rotary,and not a static type. I picked up a 15HP ARCO Roto_Phase for my equipment. The size is mainly due to also needing it for my big 650A 3phase mig welder. For the most part I ran a second motor that the machine was wired through to run on single phase. With that setup, you only get 2/3 output though, which wasn't a problem for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A VFD is a variable frequency drive. These would usually be used to adjust the rpm of an AC motor. It turns out that many of the VFDs have an additional feature, which is generating three phase output from single phase input. Some will accept single phase or three phase input power. I think that one of the other posters mentioned that you might need to derate (oversize) the VFD if you use single phase input. As I understand them, they work by rapidly switching the power on and off the approximate the usual sine wave AC power.

Anyway, I think that if you check it out you will find that it is probably cheaper to buy a VFD than a big 3 phase motor and convert it into an rotary phase converter.

One interesting thing about VFDs is they generally recommend that you remove all the other controls, relays, etc., and let the VFD do everything. If you put a switch between the VFD and the motor and open the switch it might blow up the VFD, as I understand it. If it was me, I would probably carefully document the wiring as you received it, and then disconnect the wires from the motor to the existing controls.

Not sure if there is much value in the variable motor speed in this application, but you might find that changing the speed up or down makes it run more to your liking. Those who buy self-contained hammers from countries with 50 hz power, and run them in the US with 60 hz power, sometimes change out the pulleys to get the hammer speed back to where it would have been with 50 hz power.

VFDs have many sophisticated features, such as soft starts, but not sure how valuable any of those features would be in this application.

Link to How a VFD works

Richard



How much would a vfd run? and how would that rectify the three phase issue? It is a fairly old motor(60's) but my understanding is that the shop that currently houses theses hammers spend around the order of 2000$ dollars rebuilding is motor about 2 years ago. Oh and I am worried about getting it and getting it set up, fear not.I'm really worried. I do that well, worrying. My other concerns I 'll probably mount to another post, though.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The hammers you are buying are certain worth the money he is asking.

That being said if your worried about the added expence of a phase converter you better start talking to guys with 2B's who know what it costs to rebuild one.

The current seller has described the running hammmer as in need of a complete rebuild. Get serious about what that means as it is very easy to double the cost of the hammer to get it running. Very easy...

The second hammer has a broken frame and dont expect any of the parts to be plug and play between the machines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, thank y'all for the advise. The vfd link went along way to explaining how that option could work. I spoke to terry suthers(sp?) at postville blacksmith shop and he reccomended an electrical salvage place by the name of doug beat co., out of toledo, oh. Sure enough it seems I could get a 10 hp rotory converter for about 700$. Good deal. They also said they've run 2b's on a 10hp converter with no problems, does this mesh with all,y'alls experience? Kerry, ya I know I'm being cheap and unreasonable, but this shall be my project hammer and I expect to pay for it incrementally. Also Mr.Wallace has offered to buy back parts I don't end up using, and I'm sure other's would be interested as well. So I anticipate the setting up of this hammer to be partly subsidized. The thing about the electric is that after I move shop I hope to have three phase so I'd hate to have to incur this added expense for naught, as that I'm sure I would't get around to selling it. I, like many here I suspect, tend to horde anything moderatly mechanically useful. I fully understand this to be a big, long winded, expensive, project, but it also seems to be the only way I'd ever be able to afford a 2b. Most banks won't finance the a broke blacksmith's antiquated mechanical caprices, sadly. Take care, matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand your thinking, I did the same thing with my first air hammer. Three years and $8000 to rebuild it and it only had one major issue. If your able to do most of the work yourself and you have a good mechanical background it might work out ok. Just keep in mind most basket case hammers never run again and if it was a easy fix Wallace would do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I understand your thinking, I did the same thing with my first air hammer. Three years and $8000 to rebuild it and it only had one major issue. If your able to do most of the work yourself and you have a good mechanical background it might work out ok. Just keep in mind most basket case hammers never run again and if it was a easy fix Wallace would do it.


Oh, come on, surely you have to start somewhere. I mean you were not just born with every giant cool metal smashing tool under-the-sun, right? and after all 8000 dollars over three years, with no interest is better than any terms I've ever gotten from a bank. thats like 225$ a month right? Take care, matt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know it's not the easy thing... But if I had it to do over I would save the money till I had the cash to buy a "good" hammer. And I dont have any idea of the condition of the machines your buying or what your paying. Just feel good about it befor you fork over the cash. If possible I would get inside the hammer and see what your up against. So far I've spent over $7000 trying to get a 4b up and working that ran when I pulled it. (plus the $5000 the hammer cost)I would guess I got another $3000-5000 to go before it hits hot iron... And that's a hammer that functioned. All we are saying is understand what your undertaking. I have several friends that did just what your thinking and never been able to fix their hammers. I know of two that have been being "fixed" for over 10 years. Do what feels good and trust your own judgment. I hope it all works out for you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread brings up a question I have been wondering about for a while. Please keep in mind the only thing I know about these larger hammers is they are big and they hit hard.

My question is this: why is it that almost every large self-contained hammer I hear about seems to need fairly extensive work? Were they usually mis-used in a past life? Did they have design flaws? Is it just normal wear and tear from running 12 hour days for years on end? Once 'properly' rebuilt (and assuming they are not abused), are these hammers capable of servicing a hobbiest or smaller fab shop for many years without many repairs except for routine lubrication/service, or should the owner expect to have to repair the hammer with expensive parts every couple of years or...?

I'm not serious enough to justify the costs that many here mention to buy one of these hammers. I am just curious as to what one could expect in 'getting into bed' with one of these beasts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should also say the hammer I fixed that cost $8000 to fix and three years? That was after the guy who originally bought it (from Wallace) spent several years and major $$$ trying to get it running and gave up. Between the two of us we spent close to $30,000 including the original purchase price to make it operational

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey this is quickly turning into a much more interesting thread than I originally intended. Larry, I absolutely believe you and its not without serious heart palpitations that I've considered such an undertaking. I also know you've had, what could affectionately be described as crappy dealings with mr.wallace, and its through my awareness of such things that I'm taking everything about these hammers with a grain of salt, fully expecting for everything to be a worse case scenario. But I know myself, and Iknow I'd never get around to justifiying the 13000 dollars or more it would cost for a "plug and play" 2b. At 7000 dollars for 2b's FOB and a 350$ shipping quote(My best friend is an owner-operator, of an 18wheeled- flatbed) I decided to jump. hell they'd scrap out at 2700 or so excluding the motors, and I'm sure I could do better if I sold the parts piece meal. It just seems like a wise investment even if it ruins my life........you know you'd do it. At this point I'm resigned, so maybe everone could share their nazel horror stories....I'm not being sarcastic. that would make for some really interesting reading. Take care, y'all, matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can buy a NEW 10 HP rotary converter from Anderson Converters (AZ). Google for them online. If you can find a used 10HP 3 Phase motor, you can add a panel sold by Anderson for $259 and have an inexpensive rotary. A used 10HP motor should be able to be found for much less than $450. I paid about $50 for the last one I bought.

I wouldn't even think about using a single phase motor. Three phase motors have more torque, and you need it for the Nazel hammers to get started (whether or not you unload the compressor).

The advice you are getting here is good advice. It's based on experience. Don't just smile and discount it. If you are not extremely mechanical inclined, and don't already have a means to move heavy equipment around, or something to safely hoist (and move) hundreds of pounds with a high overhead clearance shop, you are probably going to have to spend a lot more than the "dreaded" $13,000 you are thinking about. Incidently, if you are patient, you probably could find a working 2B for well under $13,000 anyway. You need to look though, it isn't likely someone is going to send a good deal your way out of the goodness of their heart (it has happened, but I wouldn't hold my breath).

Then again, if you are mechanically gifted, have a means to move heavy equipment and parts around, have a high overhead clearance shop, and some machine shop equipment (and experience), you might end up with a working hammer for a couple dollars less than $13,000.

How do I know these things....? Experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


You can buy a NEW 10 HP rotary converter from Anderson Converters (AZ). Google for them online. If you can find a used 10HP 3 Phase motor, you can add a panel sold by Anderson for $259 and have an inexpensive rotary. A used 10HP motor should be able to be found for much less than $450. I paid about $50 for the last one I bought.

Plus a contactor/starter and you're up to the price of a VFD! And a lot less work. Just a thought. Soft start and variable speed are nice too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I bought my 30hp Rotary Phase converter from these guys and have had friends buy another three of them..no issues.
They are running a sale now on Ebay:
http://stores.ebay.com/American-Rotary-Industrial-Power?_trksid=p4340.l2563
sometimes buying used at the same price as new is not a good idea.

You can see a hint of the bypass valving I use on start-up on this video:
at minute 5 or so...just as Larry says..some pipe and a valve in place of one of the plugs on the hammer. It makes for a "softer" start on the compressor.




Also on Ebay you can find a starter and heaters for the on/off switch.
you may also need a three phase panel for breakers and the breaker to feed the rotary converter.

An electrician can hook the Rotary phase converter and the on/off in a day...may as well have a few other outlets put in at other amps on a carcase you can take with you when you leave.

MAKE SURE that any and all electrical you do in that rental is yours to take with you when you leave if you wish!

Ric
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, thanks for all the advise, this forum can be a wonderous place. After tossing numbers around I looks as if I'll probably go with a vfd. But I shall wait until the motor is infront of me so I can get some advise on compatibility issues.Ric, I totally understand now how simple of a mod. that truly is, thanks for the video. And now on to the foundation! Actually I have to negotiate the moving of a 48 foot airplane wing before I get to that(I share space with a bunch of modern sculptors, you never know what will turn up).
Does no one want to share stories of abject calamity and heartbreak? Or at least near misses, that ended well? I know 90% of the ire thats produced in my day comes from inanimate objects smiting me(or city agencies) and I can only assume this ire shall grow proportionally to the size of said objects, aren't you'all in the same boat? So share and share alike, it'll be therapeutic. Take care, y'all Matt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Matt let me offer another bit if hard earned knowledge. I know it's natural to want to do what you can but I wouldn't spend the money yet to get the power sorted. Unless you have an unlimited budget. I made the mistake of building my foundation before opening up the hammer. Now I have a hulk sitting in my shop that I can't really afford to work on. Would have been much better to know I had a functioning machine before spending $6000 for foundation and power. If you have unlimited space and money I guess it's not an issue, it would just really suck to spend dough for power and foundation only to get to a impass and be unable to get the hammer running.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Matt let me offer another bit if hard earned knowledge. I know it's natural to want to do what you can but I wouldn't spend the money yet to get the power sorted. Unless you have an unlimited budget. I made the mistake of building my foundation before opening up the hammer. Now I have a hulk sitting in my shop that I can't really afford to work on. Would have been much better to know I had a functioning machine before spending $6000 for foundation and power. If you have unlimited space and money I guess it's not an issue, it would just really suck to spend dough for power and foundation only to get to a impass and be unable to get the hammer running.


Larry..I'm in a bit of pain on your behalf..... :(

Ric
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...