ciladog

Jake,

I have been reading your posts each day and you are, to say the least, an excellent writer. They are very easy to read and you hold my attention. Let’s put that together with the ‘I want to be you’ phenomena life style and you need to write a book about your life in Alaska.

Brynnb,

If you intend to do some serious knife grinding don't buy some piece of garbage just because the price is cheap. Good tools last a lifetime and retain their relsale value. Buy one of those you linked to and it's like flushing money down the potty in more ways than one.

Most of the smiths I know including bladesmiths use Baders. Yes they cost alot (you can find them used) but you can make them do just about anything you want them to with all the different accessories available. And you can always make your own accessories.

Check out the bench models.

http://www.stephenbader.com/

Will this material hold an edge?

It would make pretty insect or bird wings.

A really cool looking pair of etched tongs could be in that billet too.

Sky is the limit so to speak...

Phil

Phil, I haven't forged an insect or bird yet so I'm not about to try on this billet. I have about 7 hours into it and I don't think I want to experiment with it. And I don't think I want a pair of pattern welded tongs. But thanks for the suggestions.

Well I've made a pattern welded pizza cutter a time or two. How about a nasal for a spangen helm?

Thomas, a pizza cutter is a cool idea but this billet is a bit large for a pizza cutter and since I don't entertain much, it would just sit in the drawer. I haven't tried forging a helmet yet so that will have to wait for a future time.

So today I welded the two billets together. Check out the pictures. Now I have about 7 ½ cubic inches of solid billet to make something out of. It is about 1 1/8 X 1 1/8 X5 ½ inches.

So what should I make? Any suggestions?

Different stone has different densities so some of this is dependent on the type of stone the top is made from. If the top were made of granit (density is about 168 lbs/cu.ft) the top would weigh about 560 lbs. at the dimentions you mentioned.

I have forged the second billet the same way I forged the first. I folded each billet a third time and got their size approximately the same so I can weld them together. I’m keeping the orientation the same but at this point you can change it and get different patterns.

I have tack welded them together for welding and like before; I will fold to get rid of the welds. That is for tomorrow if all goes a planned.

There are so many skill levels on IFI that it occurs to me while forging that lots of things never get said to the newbie’s and some of the oldie’s.

When I got started in blacksmithing, I treated my coal like it was a rare commodity that I had to preserve. I would build shallow fires and wait and wait for the metal to get hot. I soon learned that this was a pediment to my blacksmithing. If you use a coal forge, then you need lots of coal or coke and you can’t get a job done unless you are willing to us it.

I used about 35 lbs of coal for each billet. So I used almost 70 lbs of coal to forge weld these two billets. And I will probable use another 20-30 lbs welding the two billets together. Forge welding uses a lot of coal!

You need to have enough coke burning under your metal so that all the oxygen is consumed before it gets to the metal. You need to keep a good air flow under your metal by using your poker to break up the coke.

If you think you are going to make this saw chain stuff with 5 or 10 lbs of coal, it not going to happen.

When you are finished forging the billets and they are still red hot, flux them. Don’t waist the heat. The flux will harden and when you go to weld them together, they will be ready.

Tomorrow I will weld the billets together and we will see what I end up with to make something out of.

Jake, I have thought about setting up the billet in different orientations. However, you must realize that there is so much space that must be forged out of the billet that what you think you will get is not what you end up with.

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You still must forge in two dimensions so I don’t see much difference in how you make up the initial billet. But I will try it on the next attempt. For now I still have to forge the other half of this project and then forge the billets together. I’m open to trying it.

Thanks Jake.

I have tried to find out what kind of steel saw bars are made from but have not had much luck with the manufacturers. I know that some are O1 but the makers just say it’s a proprietary alloy. They say the same thing about the chain.

Smithworks,

The air throttle (the ball valve connected to the linkage with two clevis yokes) need to be almost completely closed when the treadle is up on those Phoenix hammers. If it isn’t, then the exhaust air leaves the cylinder too fast when you snap your foot of the treadle.

Try this, disconnect the air throttle from the linkage and operate the hammer. It will work slowly but you will be able to adjust it so the cylinder stops slamming up. When you get it adjusted correctly reattach the linkage.

Jerry, I think Sam must've fell asleep or something. I haven't seen him on here for awhile. Nice looking spear head. I think Sam would like it if he wakes up and looks.

Sam has been working as the blacksmith assistant at Peter's Valley Craft Center for the season. Not much computer access.

If you want to try saw chain welding and you need a source of chain, contact your local tree service companies or loggers if you are in those parts of the country. They go through a lot of chain each year.

A few years back, I was having some trees taken down and I got into a conversation with the owner about what he does with his used chain. He said they send it to the scrap yard along with chipper blades, and saw bars but they don’t get much money for it.

I made a deal with him. If he would give me the used chain (and I offered to pay for it) I would make him a knife from his own chain. So I went to his yard and picked up the chain and he gave me some saw bars also. I offered to pay but he wouldn’t take any money.

I made him the knife. It was only the second knife I ever made but a deal was a deal. Now each year he gives me around 40 pounds of chain and 3 or 4 bars for free. It’s a great deal.

The next installment is ready after about 2 ½ hours of forging.

I forge the billets in a coal forge but I have done them in my propane forge. I prefer the coal forge because it is hotter and I can work faster but there is no reason that it can’t be done in propane forge if it gets hot enough. Once the billets are finished, I forge the final product in the propane forge.

I forge at about 2000+ degrees Fahrenheit - somewhere between light yellow and white just at the point where I see carbon sparks breaking out of the fire and the billet looks wet. Saw chain seems to weld very well at this temperature. However, the color needs to be uniform in the area that you will weld. There should be no dark spot in the weld area. If there are, no amount of wishing is going to make the steel weld. Just put it back in the fire (or propane forge) until it is uniformly the same temperature. Blacksmithing will surely teach you patience.

I wish I could figure out how to intersperse photos with text but I haven’t yet so refer to the attached thumbnails.

I started with a loose saw chain billet of about 14 cubic inches and ended up with a consolidated billet that is 5 cubic inches (a 2.8:1 ratio). Consider about a 3:1 volume ratio if you want to try this. I know I said earlier in a post that it was about 2:1 but I paid real attention to this project it I was a bit off on my calculations.

So into the fire. Check out the pics, they have captions on them that explain what they are.

Start slowly and work from one end to the other. Work in both dimensions. The idea here is to make a solid billet that can be worked at a press, power hammer, or at the anvil. If you move too fast, you will no doubt get inclusions that will be hard to get ride of later.

I always flux the entire billet and assume that no matter what I’m doing it is welding something at this point and at the very least, it keeps oxidation to a minimum. Until the billet is completely consolidated, I work at welding heat.

You will see from the pics that I work from one end to the other. It took 6 heats with hammer and anvil to make the billet ridged before I took it to the power hammer. But it could have been worked in a press or on the anvil.

So for now that’s it. I will work on the other billet and get it ready to weld to the first in a day or so and then weld them together. That is when I will post more info on this project. I will however answer questions. But don’t wait for me; get that old saw chain and start playing.

Thanks Randy, your class on forge welding made a world of difference in my abilities. I now approach any weld with an "I know I can" attitude and my success rate is almost 100%. Thanks again.

Smithy1,

I shoot for 3-5 folds and it depends on how the billet is coming together. If it gets too long, I would fold it again.

Consider that starting with a billet made from 10 layers of chain is already 20 or more layers. So 4 folds will yield over 320 layers.

Phil,

The billet consolidates very well if you take your time working it from one end to the other. I work an inch or two at a time first hammering the raker teeth into each other and then hammering the chains together. I try to keep the billet relatively square as I go.

It takes lots of very light hammer blows to slowly squeeze out all the spaces, oxides, and flux. I don’t go near the power hammer or press until I have a relatively solid billet.

So today I started a new saw chain project and I will post the different steps I take to make the billet and then forge it together with some degree of knowing what the final pattern will be.

You can make the initial billet any size you want but I have found that when it is wider than 2 inches it is very hard to forge weld in the width. The billet I’m making here is large so I have divided it into two billets and after each is consolidate, I will weld them together.

I’m starting with 280 inches of 3/8 “chain. That is about 5 good size chains. I start by cutting the chain into 14” long pieces. I found that the easiest way to cut it is with my bolt cutter locked into my vise. It’s surprising how easily the chain cuts. Check out the pics.

If you want to try to calculate how much chain you will need for a project, consider that there is almost as much air space as there is steel. So you need to start with a billet that is twice as large as what you want to end up with. And add some for oxidation.

Once the pieces are cut to the 14” length, I fold them over on themselves between two plates of steel and tack weld them with a MIG so that the raker teeth interlock each other. You want to eliminate as much ‘space’ as you can. Keep the welds small and put one at each end and one in the middle. The welds at the ends will eventually be cut off when the billet is finished.

I end up with 20 pieces for this project and I keep them in piles from the saw chain they came from. Different manufacturer use different alloys to make their chain so when I put the billet together, I alternate the different chains.

Now I take 10 of these double chains and stack them and clamp them tightly together. I then weld the ends. When you weld saw chain you will have to put your ground clamp as close to the welding area as you can because the current has to flow through all the rivets and you can get a lot of sputtering when welding.

Then I put a diagonal weld across the center of the billet. The reason it is diagonal is so it disappears in the final product. If it is straight, then you will get a bold line in the billet. It seems that the diagonal weld gets lost in the pattern.

I finally weld a handle to the billet. You will notice that I put a fagot weld into the handle that indicates to me which way I want to do my folds to get layer. You can get confused which way you need to fold after a few heats.

So that’s it for now. I’ll post more when I start forging.

Nice work. Could you post a tutorial on how you did it(ie. holding the chain together for the initial weld). Thanks.

I would be happy to on the next project. Stay tuned.

Very impressive. fantastic work. Wish I could discuss the process with you over a beer someday.

Hay Teeny, That would be one long distance beer. I don't think we could be much more apart geographicaly. I'm on the east coast. But we could discuss the process on IFI if you're interested. I'm starting a new saw chain project and I could post pictures and discuss the process at each step.

Thank you all for your kind words.

Matt, the way I was tought by Randy McDaniel was to make prings on the base metal and drive them into the face metal. But what I did was just make a small tack weld with my MIG and then ground it off after the forge weld was complete.

I have been working on saw chain pattern welding for a few years now and I have been trying to understand how to control the patterns you end up with. Well, I have finally achieved some measure of control.

I have made knives from these billets but it was at the early stages of my understanding and I wanted to move on to much more control of the pattern. So, I have (I think) achieved some measure of understanding and control.

My latest attempt was to make a cold work hammer and stump anvil out of saw chain. You will notice that the pattern on the hammer is straight lines on two sides of the billet and a symmetrical pattern on the other two. The pattern on the anvil got away from me in the forging but I’m still OK with the way it came out.

The hammer was made from 4 chains and the anvil was made from 5 chains.

There is 5160 welded to the hammer head and to the anvil top.

BTW,Beth,just for the record:Hot-short is when steel doesn't like to be forged BELOW certain,usually very high,temp.It is the side-effect of Phosphoros.
Cold-short is it's opposite,and is caused by Sulfur.
Happily,you'll never need to worry about that,but just in case you may run into something that exhibits these heinous traits.

Jake I have to disagree with you. I think you have it backwards.

Sulfur makes the iron "hot short" (brittle at forging temperatures), and phosphorus makes it "cold short" (brittle at room temperature). :)

I’ve gone back and looked at the pic of the dies. Have you checked to see if the hardness of the tenon is the same as the die? I would guess that it is much softer maybe not hardened at all. I would think that a hardened tenon would give rise to a stress riser. I would anneal and then only harden and temper the bottom few inches of the die. Perhaps that is why one die machined well and the other will not.

Tubbe,

How do you plan on evaluating the hardness of the dies at each temper step?

Hi,

I recently bought an old trip hammer. It's in pretty good condition but I'm currently reworking the dies. The bottom die went through the milling machine with no problem. However the upper die is super hard and I really need to anneal it before it goes near any machine. Well thats easy, but then what? I don't know what steel it's made of. How do I heat treat it?
This is my plan... Heat, and let it soak for a good while in the forge to non magnetic, then quench in oil. Then I plan to temper it in the oven in stages, to check how hard it gets. First stage 200 deg c (~400 F) and then increase to 250 (~500 F) and so on...
This type of die is attached to the hammer head with a round 1 1/2" (40mm) shank. Should I temper the shank even more with a torch maybe?



Any ideas or thoughts?

When doing multiple tempers it is my experience that the first temper is at the highest temp and decresses on subsequent tempers.

I agree with you that there really aren’t any ‘secrets’ to good fire management just good experience. But the guy wrote a very good book and is trying to make a living like the rest of us. Just didn’t want to steal his thunder. His book does point out some interesting ideas about fire management that I haven’t heard before and they are effective.

I am glad that you learned to weld and to manage a fire. There is so much to be learned that the learning never ends.

I don't understand why you would want to reduce the fire pit volume for welding. The size of the fire and the intensity of the heat are controlled by the volume of air entering the fire, wetting around the fire, and moving fresh coke into the fire. It seems that you will have to be continually rebuilding your fire because reducing the size of the duck-nest reduces the amount of coke that can be made while heating your work. How am I wrong?

Tomhw,

During the class I found that the portion of the fire I was using was long and narrow. We would bank coal high on the right and left with a valley down the middle. The coal was converting to coke at the edges of the valley but we needed to use the water can to keep the fire from spreading under the banked coal. It’s pretty standard fire management practice.

Randy pointed out that most clinker breakers are a three sided pyramid and in a usual position, one flat side is facing up. If you think about it that means that the other two sides are directing the blast air out to the sides instead of towards the middle of the fire. We tied the breakers with wire so the flat side was facing down and a point facing up. That made a difference in keeping the fire from spreading out and made a very hot spot right in the middle of the firepot.

I tried turning my clinker breaker around and found that while it worked, it also permitted a lot of coke to fall through the sides. So I decided to narrow the fire box and use the breaker as it was originally.

Since I’m working on top of the firebox (not in it) there is plenty of coal to coke conversion on the edges of the fire. The narrowed box fills with white hot coke and the banked coal on the left and right still converts nicely to coke. I just rake the coke into the box to keep it full and there is still plenty to rake over the work. And since the fire can’t spread under the banked coal there is no more need for the water can. One more advantage I found is that the clinker is much easier to find and clean out.