jake pogrebinsky

One heck of a rain-storm here,satellite connection flickering on and off,just lost a long text...Probably for the best :)

Tough question about attachement,as it brings on the width AND the texture of the wood(just like you said ).

One of the ways,if we follow the logic of contrasting volumes,would be the round,"penny scroll"-ish mounting endings on stock...To echo the stem/leaf transition?
Maybe?

One of the tough things about the organics in general is the INTERFHASE of the design with the surrounding rectilinear/geometric stuff.The mounting is where it happens.It's important that it makes almost it's own point,visually.

Also depends on wether it'll be face mounted,or inset into the depth of timbers(underscoring THEIR gauge/depth/massiveness).

I've a guy here now with a boat propeller that he needs straightened,i'll be back in the evening-let's keep on this!!!

Beth,here's what i'd say right off:

The design itself is not optional,it's something that you and the client work up,so it's axiomatic.

The way that the space in a panel is filled looks good,very competent,and it's something that you have well in hand,obviously.

What the sketches do not reflect is the relative GAUGE of member stock.That is something that i see as important:Given the sinous,organic S-curves,what i'd see as appropriate would be a visible difference in thickness,width,from large on the bottom/base,to diminishing toward the leaves.Accent-edly so,because then the large,wide leaf itself would again provide the drama of changing volume.

That,the variation of mass,would i think make that design very sweet.Wether if it was built using the parallel lines of rolled stock would make it look banal,run-of-the-mill,if you'll excuse my sloppy way of expressing things.

That's just the general impression,too.In part come by because i like them big/wide/fat leaves.

Yea,Beth,we should definitely stick to discussing work(couldn't find what you mention having posted,where's it at?).

I've been at the craft a little more than a decade,Beth,and you wouldn't envy my time at the forge if you only knew how squalid and miserable the rest of my existence becomes as a result.
But,very roughly,what i am can be described as a "river-rat".Fishing,logging,working on all the endless crap that serves as the tools for all these activities,about covers my sorry attempts to survive here.So,the forging,especially when i stay at the anvil for weeks or months at a time,jeopardises my existence severely stressing all systems to the point of dysfunction(i'm missing the summer run of chum salmon right now,which is ok,since i've only got two dogs left out of my old team,else,i'd be cutting dog-fish to dry.The driftwood logs that i've tied up this spring are still in the river,getting waterlogged,washing away in every storm,et c.).
Computer,camera,all the "cargo" is donated equipment,my rent and electricity are obtained in trade with a friend for whom i sell gas during the moose-hunting season,to the Great White Hunters.And it is because of electricity that i can go a few weeks forging-or,rather,the cryogenics(as in a freezer,which,morgue-like,is full of dead critters,so that i don't have to hunt/fish right now,for daily ration).In all ways i owe my existence to the kindness of the local indian tribe,an outcast,a stray madman.
But,enough of tales of Woe and Despair,that's what i like about our here imaginary world-it's bright and hopefull,with well-adjusted people like yourself maintaining a sane attitude!

Yesterday i actually had a day-off,which i used to process some stock.Namely,it was an old barrel-dolly,or cart,scavanged at an abandoned village site way up river.It is "wrought",or some type of low C steel,and i need to poke and to prod it some,to learn about it.
One of the important questions for me is the degree of it's plasticity,but also how coarse the layering of slag in it is,and wether it's possibly hot-(P)-short,or cold-,(S)-short.
So far,i like the stuff a lot.It's soft to forge,no shortness as of yet occured,and i even managed to split and to refine a crotch in it-a very vital detail,as i need to think about forging both an axe and an adze,of a certain type,both requiring this operation.My main stash of WI,a navy contract chain,is too coarse-grained to allow for either a crotch,or a split&drifted eye formed in it.

And now i finally(sorta)come to a point,since we've been discussing welds.
Beth,you say that you're having a tough time blending your weld in(i do too,generally).
Back a ways in this thread,Southshoresmith said that a weld MUST be well-blended.(As per the classical,ornamental forging mores).I'm sure that he's right.
However,in SOME instances,the welds were not blended in to invisibility.In industry,if a weld was thought to be sufficiently functional,it was often left fairly obvious.

Since here we're among other things discussing the impression that the forging technique has on the look of an ornamental iron,i'd pose a theory that an obvious forge-weld can be used as an ornamental embellishment,in some appropriate instances.

Here're some old welds from the stuff that i ruthlessly cut-up for material yesterday.
Photos 2002 and 2004 are the bottom and the top of the same one,fairly rarely seen weld.Interesting how the material was pinched down to back it structurally on the opposite side of a lap.

As usual,just random,disjointed thoughts... :)

Well...You can look at it this way:With something THAT cool-looking,does it really matter?!
Now,imagine more than two ganged up!Three,four...Many,in a circular pattern!!!
An Asher-pattern of tongs grasping each-other!


Yes.Incredibly,they do work.At least,for holding the bit to the plowshare.(Or,two plowshares being forge-welded into a sword... )

B) :)

Excellent,Beth,we'll have you welding in no time at all.It's an ideal joint for organics,as the branches/antlers split-up in not quite a 2 to 1 ratio,so the splitting is insufficient.

Absolutely no thanks necessary,it'll be all that i could ever do to even try to repay the generosity of people that spoke/wrote about it to educate us all...

Here's a couple more funky(this time) thoughts:

Don't listen to knifemakers and others of an anal-retentive bent(i don't mean to offend ):The welds don't require grinding.It DOES help,BUT:If you cannot deal with constant scaling,preventing and anticipating it THROUGHOUT the continued process,then you're very likely not fluent enough with the forging,not intimate enough with the entirety of the process.The danger here is to become mechanistic,and for organic forging in particular it's quite detrimental.It sounds categorical and can be argued,but this is a thought expressed poetically,if you will

For round to round weld in some cases you can faggot the parts by wiring,try to avoid the dropped-tongs ninja crap,it's cool and all in a vanity dept.,but is best left for when you'll be more comfortable with the whole welding biz(sooner than you'd think )

When the scarfs are ready,use your cut-off hardy to cerrate their corresponding faces,chew the hell out of them:The sharp points of cerrations will grab quicker(another dirty move ),see,you Brits are just too honorable for your own good,you need to learn to cheat more! )

That 1" sq that you have is a treasure.One thing that can be made out of it is a pair of DOUBLE-BITTED tongs.They used similar devices to,for an example,hold a plowshare and the steel bit for welding.It's like a siameese-twins of a tong,they share one rein,and hold two different pieces.Now,that's cheating in style!

Wow,Beth...1"sq...! .

You're quite right in that it would hold the heat well,BUT!(There are several but's.Do you habitually forge that size stock by hand?And,is it a requirement to be able to?)

Not being there,i'd interpret it thusly:The 1" sq takes so long to heat,that 1.Your fire may become depleted,somewhat,by then.2.The sharp edges(Necessary for complete blending in of weld),would by then be scaled very deeply/burned.

So,what we may have here is a unbalance of mass as relates to the fire size(as i assume that it's a reasonable sized firepot,for general work.BTW,"They" say that 5/8" is,kinda,the outside of what is common to work strictly by a hand-hammer).

Theoretically,a GOOD weld happens right away,i.e.,in one heat.Let's just take that as a postulate,something to dance from.

It follows that,for the pieces to come to the right heat evenly and correctly,a system of SCARFING is employed.Scarfing in general serves 3 purposes:
1.It uses an upset to give you extra mass to refine the weld afterwards by forging.
2.It(very importantly)creates a convexity of both parts to allow for the oxides(fluxed or not)to squeeze out of the weld,not to become entrapped.
3.Scarf employs skinny/poiny sections where the BLENDING IN will take place upon the completion of weld.

Scarfing is the variable that you adjust to your specific req.s and conditions.You're in control,it's just a matter of dialing the right shape for any given weld.You can see the general shapes of scarfs in many old and new pictures,now,try to interpret them logically relative that idea above.

Again,weld should be closed all over right away,in one heat(that alone would make 1"-ish stuff tough to do).
Here's a good way to cheat,i do it all the time(i often take ALL kinds of heats to make a weld ):
Bring everything to temp,with your pieces supported in the fire to free-up your hands,at least the one hand.Sneak a righ pair of tongs into the fire,and give the weld as strong of a squeeze as you can!See that sharp point that you scarfed on to blend the finished weld better?Squeeze that into the body of the weld too.Do a few bites on the weld without reducing the blast,even.Or,if that's too hot,turn the blast off:For a few moments the steel will actually rise in temp with the blast off as it's not being blown upon.Then resume the blast,or even bump it up!Soon you should be able to take the whole mess out,and work it over blending your weld well.
Pinch-weld,a great technology!!!

So,find a type(s)of weld that you'll find useful(vs "practicing"hypothetically).Say,a T-weld,to make a 3-part symmetry for a stand.Or a scarf-weld,to join round-stock together for an organic,tree-like branch juncture.
Think through the scarfing req.s for a given choice of weld.Then,if it doesn't work,we'll know why,possibly!

I know you guys don't like flux.Use it just to make sure where you are ATMOSPHERE wise.Once you know that it's ok,it don't matter,dry welding will do.
You're lucky to have a side-blast,it's superior atm.-wise in particular.Coke is great,too,but green coal is actually a little easier-gives you longer,because as it's coking it's using up lots of Oxygen.

That's all that i can think of for the moment,but i'm SURE that you'll get it happening,with my help or without!!!!

:) I was VERY young when there last,(13),but friends THERE laugh at me,claiming that all the "Moderne"(early art deco)styling of old Moscow has eaten into my brain...Mostly,it's just the usual urban European mix of styles,much of it with pretensions on any particular styling only...Then,25 of the following years spent in Alaska,much of it way off the grid .(Ruskinesque... )
The result:When the one grant application was approved by the the one Alaskan (hoity-toity)philantropic organisation(the grant to which i owe my power hammer),that they summarised by saying that my style "...fits in very well with the rural,cabin-dwelling Alaskan culture(read:KITSCH )..."(to my honor i was since blacklisted by them,for spending the money nominally granted for education on tools (Made a wrong turning,somewhere.Should've joined the circus as a freak,instead).

No worries!We CAN puzzle it all out!
Can you describe your forge/blower set-up,and give an idea of what type of fuel it is that you're using?
And the steel,do you buy it new?If so,what is it?

Yes'm,born an'bred in the briar patch!(Moscow,USSR),but that was a long time ago,in a place far,far away,(that no longer even there!).

Beth,let's try to figure this out.There's only a FINITE number of variables.

What are you using for fuel?What is the depth of fuel(the important factor)between air blast and work?

What's the material?Is there ANY chance that it contains Cu,Ni,Cr,any of the micro-alloying stuff,(other than Mg)?

There really is only one reason for the weld to not stick-OXIDATION.O can be burned up(reducing atmosphere),or it can be guarded against with flux.Borax,boric acid,Si of any kind that'd melt(Googerty there is using powered marble!).

And here's a very simple test:Nice fire,5-6" under the work,very moderate blast.Flux the iron whenever,really,but say as soon as there any color to heat.Now watch the flux,it tells a lot:

As the iron will get past dark yellow,the flux will begin to look GLOSSY,reflective/shiny in the light of your fuel.It may even begin to bubble.But that glossiness is all important.
If starting about then you touch the iron with a sharp,preheated poker(1/4" rod drawn to a point),you should,then,or soon,feel it stick.

Meanwhile,the temperature should still be rising,or at least be ABLE to rise(the blast still moderate.Unto the sparking-white heat,if need be(it won't be)But If you cannot get to this point,something's amiss,coal,blast,or both.

If,however,you get plenty hot,obviously,BUT:The appearance of flux is dry,patchy,whitish(even bluish),but mostly DRY,non-Glossy,what you're witnessing then is OXIDISING ATMOSPHERE.Then we'll figure out where to go from here.

But this,the atmosphere test,is THE most important factor,bar none.

In general,at any given time in any forge you have all three:Oxidising(near the blast,O),Neutral(somewhere there),Reducing(where the C exceeds the O).That last part is where you want to be.It's usually furthest from the blast,on top of the mound of fire,and not necessarily even surrounded by burning fuel.

Is all this TOTALLY confusing?Please say if so,and i'll try to put it differently.

Beth,i should never have meddled in copper(it is of the Devil-how else could a metal be annealed by quenching?!See,i knew that!).Actually,it's just that i'm a stick-in-a-mud,and really should stick to the black stuff.

The large dia.plumbing is a very nice gauge Cu.This was a chunk of 4" pipe that i cut and flattened.The stuff is heavy,10-11 gauge i'd say,close to an 1/8".So there was nothing wrong with the material.

I absolutely lack any infrastructure to raise or sink sheet.Happened to have a large concave bearing clamp off of a D6,but it was badly corroded.The Cu is very soft,to state the obvious,and i think that all that one uses on it must be polished.Bottom tools and hammer-faces.Otherwise one's doomed to texturing it in some forced,artificial manner,expediency sucks in metalwork-it's a failure of foresight.(And the worse thing that it shows )

It really is some cool stuff,annealed-incredibly soft.But lacking the tools i've only had to anneal once,never really domed it much at all.Didn't do right by it,wasn't it's fault.Done right,it can be really rewarding,i'm sure.

Caleb,i'm glad that you liked the funky spoon.You're right in that all those different elements are there for a reason,the said reasons are:Chronic pain,insomnia,malnutrition,and mental illness of a few different flavors...Seriously,i don't know what to make of it,other than to avoid it in my small,cramped space here.

Thanks again for that Googerty link,and you're right,i've noticed that also,about the collar.

Achieving a bolt-head by means of a collar was one of the requirements on the ABANA journeyman certification sort of a thing,about 10 years ago in Hammer Blow.I remember how intimidating it seemed then.It's quite a challenge,and i'm not at all sure if i can confidently enough pull that off-considering how much distortion the ball involves!
No,i'd approach that with great trepidation indeed(Googerty had that easy,unassuming kind of competence that i can only dream of...).

Actually,i'm in a big trouble with welding in general.Still a lot to learn with working with charcoal,and the quantity of fuel alone, used for the welds,is intimidating...
Also,i'm so used to the way that the coal supports the work,that it's scary to me how rapidly the iron is moving downwards in a charcoal fire,heading straight towards the oxidising zone(and reaching it before coming to welding heat,unless i'm really on top of it,it's really quite shocking).

Thank you also for the link to that Gardner book.I've started to look through it,very promising.It'd be great to hear your views on ins and outs of that.

Your advice about the tea won't work here as intended-actually,this is a big-time tea-drinking culture here(not many general stores in the US sell nice ceramic tea-pots,here-always!),and an offer of tea is duly expected(and always offered)and never refused :)

Friends,i'm sorry if i don't respond to many of the strands of our multifaceted discussion.So many things come up,and so many of them are very valid,and interesting,but i'm operating close to the limit of my brain capacity,the time seems so short in the morning,and in the evening any thinking is often shot.
I do read everything written very thoroughly,it's the response that's tough.

Thanks,John:I'm surprised that it's not the design element you recognise,and thus am so much more impressed with your astute analysis.That's the impression that i got,too,that it was based on availability of very uniform,small-gauge stock.I seem to remember vaguely that this style of joinery is French,but cannot for the life of me recollect where was it that i came across it(have seen pictures of it more than once,in books,and possibly on the British Museum internet site).Again,thanks,and again,i greatly envy you the access to the pure iron,in all these different sizes(including the sort usable for this particular deal).

Beth,you're a terrible influence on me! Something that you've written this morning has made me want to experiment with copper.I had a chunk of Cu plumbing pipe laying around a while,and this was the catalyst to finally tackle it.
The result is so eclectic that I won't even disparage (the Dharma)in my usual way.It's surprised even me just what a hodge-podge of assorted historic/ethnic elements is jumbled inside my pea-brain.
I think that i'll be done with totally instinctive forging for a while,anyway,as it's results are somewhat unsettling,of late
It just may be a good time to carefully plan a project,sketch it,et c.,been flying on instruments a bit too long,methinks.
But,needless to say,any forge-time is absolutely worth it,all the way.

Today,as occasionally happens,i was called upon to demonstrate the essence,the
basics of forging.I think a good way to go about it is a good old leaf-hook,it covers the entire mystique of blacksmithing very effectively,i think.Add a thoughtless,psychodelic stream of verbiage,and you can actually observe the visitor's eyeballs cross,and off they go,happily leaving you to labor in peace.Given the level of alcohol in the visitors' bloodstream,and my extensive practice at the above sadistic amusement,it gives me almost an unfair advantage.For the drunks,mind you,are holy,and the godhead contained therein is not lost on me,but,darn it,i've a ton of forging to do...

As for cooking,the only kind that i've had the time for,lately,is accomplished at the forge,as well.I ought to just drag my bedroll there too,what the heck,in for a penny...

Thank you,Beth,most sincerely,for all that is EXACTLY what blacksmithing consists of-weapons,kitchen implements,life,family...Now we're finally getting down to the very essence of the craft!

Seems to me that FORGED iron had limits as far as it's uses in the household:

It can't take the many repeated intense heat-cycles(because of the high strengh of it's molecular bonds,vs the large,coarse grain of cast iron),thus the stove-top,frying pans,and all that is doing similar duties is cast.

In a acidic,corrosive kitchen environment the raw oxidised iron was difficult to deal with.Therefore,many things that contact the food directly were hybridised with other metals,non-ferrous copper,tin,pewter,et c.
So probably an all-iron spoon would be not the thing.The handles,on the other hand,it works fine for.Riveted together,again,to take the expansion/contraction of heat cycles.

Further,many things that are used directly in the open fire itself(as they'll get oxidised anyway):Skewers,pot-hooks/chains,roasting forks,and the devices to hold all these in position,cranes and all the funky systems of X-Y axis based on the andiron protrusions.

So,to generalise,OPEN fire cooking more than stove-top.

Just loose thoughts here,got to roll out to the forge.Here's that forged element that i meant(was easier to sketch than search the internet with my connection speed).
It was used to gain a spread of iron over an area,grill-work in effect,and that's what(i gather)it was in fact used for-grilling.
Several,3-5 or so,bars were differentiated thusly,and then tenoned/welded into a rectangular frame,usually the center one protruding as a handle.

Beth,i sure do enjoy reading your posts!That is somehow very fitting that you're a swordswoman !
I must say that i'm very surprised that you cook with wood,i wasn't sure as to what kind of access you may have to firewood in England,nowadays.
But since you wrote this,now i'm picturing this Dickensian "grate","hob"(?),and all the cool exotic accutrements that a wood-fired kitchen utilises.
Do you use open fire in a fireplace,or a cookstove,with a castiron cook-top?(Lately,as i split all the wood for the charcoaling process,i find myself falling back into the cookstove wood splitting mode...It used to be that 2 milk-crates full would run it long enough to bake about 6 loaves of bread,or do one cycle in a pressure-canner,but now i'm splitting it by a 55-gal drum...)
What kind of cool forged stuff you use in the kitchen?
And,something that i wanted to ask you,or maybe John B,one of these days:How were those grill-things made,the ones where the a bunch of rods are welded together in a series of in-fitting,nesting heart-shapes?(is that description totally obscure?i'll try to find a picture)...

Caleb,thanks for the link,i'll see what it is after the charcoaling chores.
I'm afraid that in all my travels i've not encountered "the fobia of forging a sword" before!Quite the opposite,like you say yourself,that every kid wants to forge a sword,be they in an adult body or what have you!

I'm not sure at all,not being of either persuasion very strongly,but i can,theoretically,see the magic of (grinding )...sword-making.As in "The vorpal blade went snicker-snack...".It often speaks very vividly to people,some associate it with creativity,others with destruction,but it's always been a very powerful symbol to folks,needless to say.Enlightment,i think,too,but it's been a while since i've looked up old Joe Campbell

Technically,it's an incredibly complicated object,with it's harmonics,vibratory nodes,and other extreme physics of it's use.I can see how one can be facsinated with it from that point alone,but had never came very close to the subject myself,never past the oxidised state of anything,really.MUCH wonder in the metallurgy of swords,that's for sure.I can easily picture it to become all-consuming passion,i bet that's what you're sensing,and resisting B)

Darn it,Lewis,you haven't hurt that vise,have you?!
Very sorry to hear all that.Pictured it all very vividly,as i've a 20" Champion camel-back here that i use every day,"There but for the grace of god go i..."
Hope that you'll get everything on line,if i'd lived in the neighborhood would volunteer to help most gladly,alas and alack.
Get well.

Allright,here's what i've wasted nearly 5 hours,and coal without count on,today.And here's what i think about it:
I can't believe that after all these years i'd still do something as stupid as grab a mystery chunk of steel...This having started out as 1" rd,and having turned out to be other than mild,it wasted lots of time and fuel,and beat me up pretty good.
Also,first time in a long while,i've screwed up a rope twist.Good grief.
Something went dreadfully wrong with plasticity on the outside of stock,the only part,or the one most affected by the twist.So i've done a slezy thing,and modified it's surface by smearing it with a hammer.A hammered twist.Shame upon my greying beard.

However,i did get to play with hot iron,and try out this one design trick that i've wanted to for a while-to balance the poker by an enourmously heavy handle.It's interesting.The COB is at...ok,just kidding.

And yes,another of my insufferable balls,this one a good 1 1/2" across.There's a reason for this(other than it's the only rod-ending that i know ).


I hates Bagginses,no,not that,rather dysfunctional pokerses.There were so many that i've seen,and handled,and even tried to use!It's disgusting:The poker does a couple of very simple tasks at most,and there ought to be a law.

Here's MY law(as an adult,i've really never lived with anything but wood heat,so it's not a brain-fart,either).The poker must be good at dragging things toward the wielder.Therefore,it must have a point,and some lengh (not great)of the perpendicular member.THere needs NOT be a protrusion beyond that-it serves no purpose.
Above that,the slight flat on the cross-piece helps to dig for embers in the ashes,of a cold morning.But that's specialisation,and not strictly necessary.

It being a tool that one pulls,there MUST be a bulge that one's palm rests against when so employed.It sucks not to have that!Other than that it's nice to have some reference long axis-wise,as one does turn the poker to flip the log,sometimes.But one can just tense the hand for that,wether for pulling it violates any common sense of tool design!

Now,i've had a tough day at the forge,and it's so nice to have a place to vent! :)

As you know well yourself,Beth,you can't define anything for them.But,as they watch you act,now but especially i think later in their lives,what you do and the way you act will define EVERYTHING for them,and increasingly so...(So I think,being the worst parent imaginable,AND the worst child as well,and THAT teaches one a great deal )

Luke!So cool to see a representative of the up and coming generation here!I,too,would dearly love to find them "rules without number"...But not sure that they exist,as in written down form.
I'd say that's exactly what we're doing here,though,making them up!What's wrong with making up one's own rules? (while we look,anyway).
My weird opinion is that the rules are in our genetic make-up(to use a term that i could never actually define).But i really do believe that 100%.
What's not innate to us,the set of skills,et c.,is still sort of innate because we pick it up so readily.Even the interest itself,which is where it begins.
So,the skills can be easily learned from others,here and elsewhere,and the rest of the secret knowledge is contained in the iron itself.
And that really is all that there's to it:Our innate capacity to interact with the structure of iron,our affinity with it.Thus,our
"taste" in ironwork.

Whereupon we come to that(despised by many)obnoxious attitude as far as the iron goes,that can be expressed by the old:"Life's too short to drink cheap beer" :)

David,hi.I've used the skidding tongs extensively,and may even have to forge a set here in a while.
Much good info has passed above,let me quickly reiterate some of it.

The stock would be better round.One inch mentioned may be overkill,but it won't hurt nothing.
There's a link above that i didn't open(computer speed is dismal),but it's a right idea,look at a store-boughten pair.The photo above is,of course,not the skidding tongs,but a log-builder's hand-tong,for manipulating logs in const.,very useful tool indeed.
The kind that you need have a 2-stage compression joint,like a forging tong with 2 hinges.The outer-most is made of three rings,(mig or arc them well).
I wouldn't worry about the sort of steel,as the physics work to your advantage,mild'll be fine,the points that carry the load are proportionally very stout.
Size the tongs so that the points point in a bit(obviously ),but grabbing the little ends will serve you better,so no reason to build a giant set.
There's a number of log-builders that i know that use regular,store tongs(usually bought at Bailey's mailorder)for lifting,though they're not rated for it.But lifting is a different story.Dragging logs along the ground you're safe no matter what you do.Or,if you have a 3-point on the tractor,do lift it a bit,it's very helpful.

If you end up dragging with just a chain(chokers are nice,but are used in industry where often some lift is present,dragging by choker is fairly dismal,depends on terrain/hp of your rig),use a 8-10' or so log chain,with a hook on each end,5/16" be plenty.Choke one end around the log,and use the other end to bridle back to the opposite side of your loop.Making a loop that grabs the bottom 1/3 or so of the log dia.That will keep it from rolling and diggging in(for the most part ,it helps,anyway).
If you grab the skinny end of the log the physics will provide some lift.
Best of luck,Jake

Thank you,Beth,that's a very kind wish on your part,i'm glad that you can relate on so many levels.This place is an absolute madhouse,pretty much all the time.Village life is intense,i love it,it's the best excuse not to get anything done at all.
The rearing of children is an absolute IMPONDERABLE conundrum nowadays more than ever,as the change in society,communications,and technology is historically unprecedented.
"They"(?)say that all the electronic doo-dahs teach a person as much as the "real",tactile arts,as the change at the neuron level is actually taking place...

My computer is trying to crap out on me,if i can,i'll try to post a link to a russian amateur archeology site.There are some photo alboms of ancient bronze castings,fairly rare east of the Ural range stuff.Amasing plasticity in all the 3D metal stuff...
http://domongol.su/gallery/album.php?id=164
OK,these are the galleries of objects,you can check them out at random,and not worry about the language(the attribution is approximate anyway,and made by god knows who...You can treat it like a Mass in Latin...a cool,non-cerebral experience )
The bronze casting contributes little to design in forged iron,but,it's the neuron change that matters

Caleb,thanks much for the link,and all your thoughts as well.It's been years since i've looked at Googerty's book,it all comes back to me now!I think that he was somewhat of a tragic,saintly character,who ended up spending his whole life teaching young prisoners,or some sort of troubled youth...

Hey now,there's the campus clutter and campus clutter!You're good at it.Michael,thoughtful,and passionate both.It's not the most advantageous photo,do you have one with the pterodactyl more centered to the viewer?
I've really enjoyed looking at your "vessel",at the NW forum,very cool that you have the guts to do the non-functional stuff,my hat's off...
Very tough day today,very little production.Played with the general door handle prototype+assorted pseudo-ethnic stamping(ought to quit looking up all the sciphian/alan/sarmat artefacts,at least for a while).
It's very tough to be a village blacksmith.The traffic is incessant,and I never knew that so much of the job consists of alchohol counselling,and related duties.
Ireally appreciate all the thoughts,afraid that i'm too far gone to do them justice,will probably reply about the middle of the night,as usual.

Just in case,that Ruskin essay that i had in mind,is very significant.
In it,he compares the largely anarchic dwellers of the northern forests,their spiky conifers/wolves and bears,with the much better organised Mediterranian craftsmen.Who as a rule worked under architects(vs the solitary and separated northerners,serfs of distant feudal lords),creating very regular,geometric designs(mosaics,frescoes),employing all the brilliant colors that they were surrounded by,the sea,the flowers,brightly colored birds.Again,vs the morbid,black/white/tan palette of the North.
So,to make the short story long,what happened is that Northerners created the Gothic masterpieces,using that exact forbidding spikiness,shagginess,and monochrome of their miserable,squalid existence,and all went to heaven,because they still loved God even though He was very mean to them!They were the Good Children in the story,and you can guess what happened to the bad ones.
Oh,yeah:The eclectic elements in the Gothic stuff,gargoyles and such.It was their dysfunction,anarchy,and all the general lack of parental oversight that allowed for such rich brattiness!The goody-two-shoes Mediterranians would never dare-life was too good to misbehave...



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Beth,i absolutely admire you for raising such a wonderful family,it's definitely a vastly,immesurably more important of a trade than any I promise you that i'd never have,or will turn away anyone at all desiring to learn,(dug through my old picture for some of shots of assorted urchins in my shop).It's probably beyond my capacity to comprehend,let alone effect a change,in a socio-economic system surrounding me,i'd better not try,i can't even figure out something as relatively simple as forging...

John,it's a great ramble,thanks.Your many points are well taken.

It was,of course,rash of me to toll the bell for forging:Much is still being explored and discovered therein.(Much of it i'm not aware of,not being connected to the world by other means than this here funky futuristic monitor).

In regards to using the natural forms as source of inspiration and such,you're also,of course,quite right.For what it's worth,here're my thought on this.

I believe that the iron forgings should,first and foremost,look like IRON.That means that when i try to forge a leaf,i want it to look like an iron leaf,not the way that a cottonwood leaf looks.It must be a lucky/serendipitous or a very skilled combining of that natural shape AND the natural tendency of iron to distort in the like manner.

Often,i simply lack skill,talent,vision,all that it takes to achieve that symbiosis.I have tried to play with organic shapes,and will do so again,but i came up against my limits in that,and veered off into the shapes that speak "iron" louder,so to speak.

I do hope that in a general,sub-rational way,my organic surroundings influence my brain.The textures(that,again,i'm dead-set to produce artificially),and the general "flow" of natural forms,and especially the changes/transitions of mass:The way tree branch or a deer antler divides,there're some perfect proportioning there(usually requiring a forge-weld,the sum of parts being greater than the original mass from whence it splits off).

In my opinion,judging by the work of others that i see,such work is easy to overdo.I intensely dislike much of the "anatomically correct" modern organic work,such as grape vine and clusters,there's always something off about it.Makes my brain want to make a choice:It's either iron,or real grapes,and it looks like neither.
Even more gross are roses that are thickly coated with glossy paint in screaming colors.(In this i,again,envy you as an Englishman,for you've a certain cultural,canonic look of like work that is traditional there,and generationally worked-out to look a certain way.As well as the people used to seeing it that way).

The "trick",it seems,is the TRANSLATION.To know the way of iron deforming,and to express some object using that language,and to do so fluently.Here often the skill and talent simply fail me.

As an example,i'll post photos of my sadly failed attempt to translate from wood carving into iron.The original is an old church in Sweden,and the photo was taken from here:(if we'll continue this discussion,folks will have to excuse my posting sources in russian,but the text is irrelevant anyhoo,i just want to preserve polite internet ethic of accreditation)http://forum.ostmetal.info/showthread.php?t=220649

So,to summerise:I often come across the designs in nature itself,or old work in stone,wood,and other,that i'd LOVE to do in forging.But fail to do so in a classy manner,and have to back off to the present confines of my skill.

BTW,have you,John,Beth,or anyone here read Ruskin on Gothic work,where he talks about the imagery surrounding the artist(northern woods vs the Mediterranian,et c)?I came across parts of it and could never track it down after...

Caleb,thanks for the suggestion,it's kind of you!
I do cooperate with other craftsmen as an opportunity presents itself.Mostly,they're builders,log and timberframe,a mason that we're working on some masonry stove hdwre,as you can see from the list,also very concrete arts!

I've never had a chance to participate in a joint venture with a postmodernist painter or the like,might be fun!(I can be the exibit,the question-provoking "installation":Naked,covered in charcoal dust,angrily beating-up something on the anvil).
That ought to put the fear of god into the effete art-community

(Alas,the era of social-realism has gone...)

Jokes aside.There's an old story of someone exibting an old goose-wing axe head,stuck in a log,at an art show.It recieved some "honors" or what-not,before someone discovered that it was an actual axe.Then it was demonstratively booted out of the show,with all sorts of noises of righteous indignation.It is the sign of the times.

Actually,happened to take these photos just today.Friends kids are visiting,and looking through the book of some very elaborate custom art-knives that my friends in the old country sent.I've eavesdropped on their conversation,and it was not very encouraging,a mix of pop-culture images.The fact that these knives/swords were MADE by someone didn't seem to matter to them much.
And these kids are priviledged,they do get books read to them.There MAY be some hope for these ones,but there are many more that are in rough shape.
And the fact of my stark poverty does not speak well for my trade.either :unsure: