Ed Thomas

I'm thinking any women on the core team will want somewhat different symbols escaping the fire.

It would be best if you could tell us a few things:

1) Where did you get the metal -- what did it used to be? MOST common iron alloys have some range of heat in which they can be forged and hot-worked. For instance, some alloys are a LOT of trouble to hand tool because they are designed to resist deformation at high heats. There is a very narrow band where such a metal is in a plastic state; it can fail spectacularly above that and be impossible to cut below that. To anneal such an alloy (M2 and M42 are examples) would require good heat-treating ovens and adherance to complex steps from their performance tables. Other alloys are much friendlier to blacksmiths.

2) What are you trying to make? Tooling, slitting, and cutting are all normal forging options. But you might have to make the tools first. We can't advise you on what tooling to make without an idea of the project.

3) Is there a way to forge the metal to the right shape? Your question sounds like machinist or fabricator thinking. That means stock removal and welding to shape. Forging manipulates the material while it is plastic. Sometimes that is not practical or even possible, but when forging IS an option, it is often actually the easiest option.

Here are specific answers to your question, though I think we can help more if you answer the above questions for us.

1) Yes, you can can (and often should) carve when hot.
2) Yes, you can use an old file or farrier rasp on hot steel.
3) Yes, it will be ruined for normal filing, which is why you use an old one.
4) Yes, you can make tools out of a material and then on itself. It is done all the time. It works because the tool is hard compared to the heated piece which is plastic.

Christopher:

I think you should mount it inside or a lot of the pots and pans will get rusty.

That looks nicely done. I like your tooling and proportions. Here are some suggestions I have from my experimentation with wall-mounted potracks:

1) Instead of S-hooks, consider using hooks with right-angle bends at the top. That way, the hooks leverage against the rack more firmly and the pots and pans don't swing around as much. You can also do very interesting things with that part of the hook, including tooling designs so that they become an integral design element of the bar itself.

2) You might have done it, but try to line up the mounting holes so they wind up at 16" intervals. That way if the pot rack is mounted on drywall (fairly common) the hardware will screw into studs. Honestly, it looks like you already thought of this, which is very good.

3) Don't be afraid to really pronounce the split scrolls at the end. They look cleanly done, so maybe you can split and scroll another few inches to get them more attention.

I note with satisfaction that you elegantly solved a common problem. If you didn't have that middle hanger, the bottom scrolls on the end would dig into the drywall (or panel) and over time do some damage as the pots and pans pulled down. Your hanger fixes that dilemma. Well done!

Thank you for sharing this very nice work.

Mr Freek: You really can't go wrong buying the UMBA videos. The first one costs $7, and every one after that costs $5 within the same order. They are almost all 5 to 6 hours long. They are always filmed by volunteers and the camera work is not professional. But if you pay attention, you can learn a good bit fairly cheaply. I do not have the Bob Patrick video you asked about, but I have 18 other UMBA videos and don't regret buying any of them.

Richard: Making small punches is not so much difficult as it is a bit tedious. Consider making your own. I don't endorse anvilfire, but here is a link to how to make a touchmark or punch:

link removed at the request of anvilfire

Yes there is flux on welding rods. It is largely the composition of that flux that gives the rod its characteristics. Here is a brief look at stick welding:

Shielded metal arc welding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the longer article on welding:

Arc welding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The various rod and welder manufacturers, such as Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart with their own information and discussion boards...
Miller - Welding Equipment - MIG/TIG/Stick Welders & Plasma Cutting
Lincoln Electric
Hobart Welders: The Power to Change Your World

Ludo: A few thoughts:

1) If you only have an AC machine make sure the rods work with that. 6011 is good. It was developed for farm type maintenance... to get through debris and grease. Not easy to get a "pretty" weld, but does good penetration and is reliable in a wide range of humidity and neglect. As with Hollis, it is by far my most used rod.
2) If you aren't going to weld often, you might want to avoid the 7018 rods for awhile. They have to be kept dry and are best used when the box is opened unless you have a rod dehumidifier.
3) 7014 makes a "pretty" weld. Not great penetration, but very easy to strike and arc and lay a bead.

Almost every blacksmith who has a welder (including me) will occasionally use it to stick things together to forge weld in the fire. It isn't necessary, but often makes life easier if you have complicated shapes that don't lay down next to each other very well. If you do that, try to keep the tack weld to the very minimum to hold the pieces in place JUST long enough to do your forge weld.

After you tack them, it helps if you wirebrush the scale and weld flux and spatter off. I usually use an electric wirebrush to be sure. That way the first few hammer blows of your forge-welding will erase the weld entirely. If you keep the arc-weld to the bare minimum, you don't even have to think about blending it in. In other words, you aren't trying to get a head-start on the forge-weld; you are merely using the tack weld to hold the pieces together long enough to do the actual welding in fire.

A torch weld often works even better for this sort of application.

Ron, even bagged pea coal here in Virginia is only somewhere around $5 for a 40 lb bag. I get it delivered loose and the last time it was about $175 a ton. So I'd say that your cost was a bit outrageous.

Looking on the internet, I found these coal producers in Arkansas:

Johnson Co.
R & S Coal Company, P.O. Box 377, Scranton, AR 72863
Russ and Sons, Inc., P.O. Box 1609, Greenwood, AR 72936
Logan Co.
R & S Coal Company, P.O. Box 377, Scranton, AR 72863
Sebastian Co.
Comer Mining Company, Greenwood, AR 72936

Maybe you can contact them to see who buys it from them local to you, or maybe you can even go them and buy it. Usually, delivery requires a minimum order of several tons, though.

My impression, glancing over the links, is that some Arkansas coal is metallurgical grade (the best), so you should be able to buy it there. If I find out anything else, I'll post it.

I heartily agree. A VERY respectable set of tongs, and unusually well done for the first pair. Thank you for sharing your work!.

You guys are lovin' this, aren't you? :D

I don't think this is much good for a beginner, actually, and I mildly disagree with most of your points.

1) The anvil height should be whatever it should be for you. The forge should be whatever height it turns out to be that is reasonable. Use an adjustable stand to hold things in the forge that are too long. Since the height of a piece is often not exactly horizontal, there isn't much point in using the anvil as a support. Set the anvil where it is convenient and at a comfortable height (I like mine about flat palm height).
2) What fire tools? I use a rake and a shovel. I can usually tell the difference between the two. Plus I usually hang them each in their own spot, which is far more important than what shape they have.
3) Okay, if you remember, put the hammer oriented to true north. Same way each time.
4) Standing with feet shoulder width apart at the anvil is awkward. Most smiths find the most comfortable stance for themselves, but often that is the outer foot forward as standing along the anvil. Your point of relaxed stance is good.
5) Okay to throw your hammer at the anvil.
6) Rhythm is overrated. Pay attention to the mechanics of hammering and let musicians tend to the rhythm.
7) Strongly disagree here... If you are determined to strike the first blow with authority every time, then you will chronically screw up your work. It is often very important to set your first blow and check its accuracy. That way you can make the minor adjustments to put it exactly where you wanted if you are off. If the tool bounces out of the hole or cut, then chances are your iron is not hot enough, you hit it wrong, or you are holding the tool poorly anyway. I have yet to see George Dixon look amateurish taking his gentle careful placement hits.
8) As said by others, pushing the metal in from the top will often break up a perfectly good fire. Sometimes it is the right way, but just as often I slide a piece into it. The shape of what you are forging determines what you have to do. Sometimes, on big things, you place the piece in the fire and push the fire around it. There are no hard and fast rules that I've seen yet. Learn fire management.
9) I agree here... think while you are heating and know what you are going to do as you bring it out.
10) Wirebrush in and out??? That's sounds a bit obsessive. Maybe good for dental care, but I don't worry too much about wire-brushing forged work until I'm nearly done, unless I'm working specifically on some piece that I want to avoid any scale imprinting. Even then, I'm not an in/out/brush/brush sort of guy. I brush as necessary as I go along.
11) Reducing the number of heats is overrated also. It is far more important to work at the right heat, and put it back in the fire to get it hot again than it is to worry about how many times that takes. As long as you don't burn the piece, the number of heats has no bearing on the final appearance. Almost always, the mangled, tortured look people associate with too many heats is caused by poor hammer control and improper heating.
12) Frustration is good. If you aren't frustrated occasionally, then you might be stagnating.
13) Zen is overrated. Everything is focus and CORRECT practice. If your hands are wandering around without direct control from your brain, then you should probably take a break.

Some of this is said tongue in cheek, but I am quite serious in my opinion that this list is of little value to a beginner. They strike me as a few random thoughts that are taken out of context. IN context, that is... in a teaching setting, each one of these points MIGHT be made as part of a bigger point. But standing alone like this, I'm not too crazy about them.

Yes, concur with the round 1/2" plate with 1/2" holes. That is quick and works like a champ for longer than you'd expect. However, if you can cut slots instead, that is better because the holes clog up too easily. Two or three 1/2" slots about 1/2" apart. Doesn't have to be pretty because after a few fires it won't be anyway. One drawback is that clean-out is a bit harder.

Okay, Alan, I see the humor now.

Alan: I'm not sure what part struck you as hilarious. It is commonly accepted that open-die forging is a craft requiring manipulation by hand. The powered tools are an extension of his hands and skill just as a hammer and tongs. We don't say "Hammer-made" or "Tong-wielded" when we say hand-made iron items. I have yet to see anyone hold the hot steel in one hand and smash it with the other fist to be purely and literally hand-made.

There isn't any more hype in this ad than in any of the USA stuff.

Oljoe: It is a tribute to the complexity of your first work that we can come up with so much advise. So please consider it a little bit of flattery if I rachet this up a notch and talk about design some more.

I am going to disagree with Irnsgrn on scrolls and frames. In forged work, scrolls are an integral part of the structure and just as important to the functional integrity of architectural work as the straight frame pieces. In instances such as yours, they should be the triangulation elements that keep the frame rigid and prevent it from racking. Structural members developed ornamentally in all sorts of fanciful ways without ever relinquishing their function. Scrolls evolved from their functional roots.

On the other hand, fabricators treat scrolls as icing and decorative tack on ornamentation, partly because welding has replaced a lot of the need for all those cross members. They are trying to mimic elegant forged work with glue. The only problem is... they LOOK like tacked on pasties when they are treated that way. If you think of them as organic structural elements, all of the sudden the design incorporates them in a MUCH more harmonious way.

Again, thanks for offering this work for our study.

Oljoe: Thank you for sharing your work with us. Strine is braver than I am. Although I'm known for speaking my mind (polite for "he's an obnoxious fluxhead"), I worried that saying anything other than praise might scare you off. Since he already took care of that, I'll hope you read his and my comments and come right back for more abus... I mean help.

My biggest suggestion is to find samples of REAL forged work. Really GOOD forged work. The Dona Melach books are pretty decent references as a start. Your sign hanger looks as though the majority of your sources for ironwork were fabricated. As I've said before, the fabricators try to copy forged work... not the other way around.

Strine said it very well: Use thicker stock so the view from the side is more full. Fabricators can't make good scrolls. We can. One attribute of scrolling is continuous gentle curving... as though the steel is actually in motion or organic.

Don't mix and match if you can help it. Having a mechanically joined frame with obviously welded guts sort of snags on the mental eye. There is nothing wrong with fabricating but it doesn't usually mix well visually with forged work. There is also no such thing as a part of a project that isn't seen.

That was an ambitious first forged work and I don't blame you for using the welder for the part that is tough. But it really is possible to forge and mechanically join the letters in a variety of very pleasing ways.

The bars on the circle could have had tenons that passed through the circle and were peined over. Every time one element of metal meets another is an opportunity to do something pleasing to the eye, and something harmonious to the piece. Every time you simply glue it in place is an apology.

Again, thank you for sharing with us.

Nick, this is a common problem in any discipline, not just forging. It is caused by trying to hurry so you don't waste time. Slow down, concentrate, and don't worry about how much you are getting done.

You are trying to learn a skill that requires practice just like any other. Would you expect to be able to play the violin by practicing 2 hours once a week? Of course you can, but you won't play on the stage of Carnegie Hall at that rate. Instead, you have to keep your projects within the bounds of skills you can develop on such a limited time budget.

If you don't have the time to practice forge-welding, then use longer pieces of steel to make the tongs and draw the reins out instead.

When I was starting out, I was so determined to make forge-welding a natural part of my skill set that I started every session in the shop by building a fire, forging two railroad spikes together by their heads, and making the welds disappear into one continuous 5/8" bar. In my opinion, you HAVE to practice. Forging is an acquired skill with no shortcuts.

A cone mandrel is NOT for making rings. It is for truing rings. The ring should already be done before you drop it on the mandrel. I have a solid cast 2' mandrel and it is very handy. You don't use it often, but if you have one, it does the job like no other tool... quickly and easily. You don't hit the ring all the way around... you drop in over the mandrel and look for daylight. Wherever you see light, just tap those spots. The rings settles a little lower and in no time you are done. You tap at the bottom of the ring where it makes contact with the mandrel; not in the middle which would cause it to bevel. Usually, it's best to flip it over and do a quick tune up on the other side just to be safe. I would like to have a 4' mandrel but haven't ever had a job which justified that particular expense.

Alan: This looks like an excellent candidate for the critique section. :)

Ludo: As mentioned in the other thread, the O/A torch is a powerful tool and can be very dangerous if not handled correctly. I didn't take a course, per se, but a friend was a welding instructor at a VoTech school back when I first used my torch, and I made sure I was doing things safely before I started. Every two years or so, our monthly blacksmith meeting demonstration is an O/A torch safety and use refresher by him. That is how important we all think O/A knowledge is here. Acetylene in it's free state is unstable, so containing it and using it requires diligent attention and no fooling around. The work you can do with it is well worth that attention, so don't be afraid of it... just respectful. A formal torch course would be best, but at the least make sure you are completely comfortable with all the operation and safety information from your dealer before you take off.

If you don't have a knowledgeable friend as a resource or a timely night class, then I strongly recommend you buy all your equipment from a dealer rather than online or catalog. The small difference in price will be more than offset by the assurance that you are getting compatible and safe equipment for the work you intend to do. In fact, you can waste a lot of money trying to chase bargains which are incompatible with each other or are unsafe.

Very often used torches leak or have defects, which is why they are being discarded. Used and cheap gages/regulators are very often faulty also.

The Victor torches are very popular and good.

Good luck. It is exciting to have someone from your part of the world with us in the forging community. I hope it works out for you.

Sometimes I feel like a broken record. Seek out the BEST blacksmiths and references you can find. The difference in inspiration is enormous. Mediocre artisans and well-meaning beginners won't do you a lot of good when you are aiming high. There is nothing wrong with your current frustration. In fact if you harness that restlessness for perfection, you can improve dramatically. Go look at superb ironwork. Touch it. Wonder at it. And go try to capture whatever makes it superb in your own work. Finding inspiration will focus your energy in one direction, and then seek the skills that will get you there.

Ludo: Yes, I really think an O/A torch is a better first tool than a MIG welder for a blacksmithing shop. I have a MIG and use it fairly often because it is a convenient tool, but it is quite one-dimensional... all you can do is weld. A good MIG will definitely cost at least as much as a good O/A set... in my case it was much more. The torch, on the other hand, just continues to increase in usefulness as you grow as a blacksmith.

I routinely use the torch to locally heat for setting tenons and rivets. I often heat pieces that need shaped a particular way. By using a rosebud, you can heat and bend as you go, which makes complex bending with varying thicknesses a piece of cake. With cutting tips, you can cut rough shapes in MUCH thicker steel than a plasma cutter. It is nothing to cut a 2" bar of mild steel with a typical medium duty torch. With practice you can cut patterns in thick or thin sheets. I have used the O/A welding tips on site to tack pieces in position to get a pattern for railings. By making a mockup with scraps that I can bring back to the shop, there isn't any guessing on slopes and dimensions. The O/A set doesn't need an electrical outlet to do that sort of work. Welding sheet metal is actually easier with a torch than anything but a TIG. When I am all done forging, cleaning, and sanding a piece, I can use the rosebud on the torch to warm the work before applying a finish, and then use the torch to speed the drying or alter the look of the finish.

Be aware, though, that this is assuming you are going to be working with iron and steel. Other metals present different problems and the torch isn't always the answer.

Ludo: For a blacksmith shop, an oxy/acetylene torch or equivalent is more useful and can be cheaper than a decent MIG or TIG welder. A plasma cutter is unnecessary in a blacksmith shop since it is entirely a fabricating tool. You can weld, cut, and locally heat steel with a O/A torch and the set is self-contained... you don't have to stay tethered to an eletric source. If acetylene is not an option, look for MAPP or propane, though they have other limitations.

If you don't know what you want but are bound and determined to arc weld your way into the blacksmithing community, get a good simple stick welder. That is the cheapest route. Then as you gradually shift away from blacksmithing to fabricating, figure out what tools will replace the forging skills the best, and buy those as you need them. They are too expensive to guess ahead of time, and the cheaper versions aren't worth the waste of money.

You don't NEED electric metal fusing/cutting devices in a hot forging shop. They are handy tools for making tools, but there is a forging equivalent for everything that they do. That is the point of blacksmithing -- traditional forging and joinery is free of gimmickry and is completely elemental. You need a heat source, and anvil, and a hammer. You can make or buy anything else as you need it.

Terry, I have never done a spiral (helical) staircase, so hesitate to offer any advice since it would be all second hand. But I wanted to offer that there is a page or two in "Forged Architectural Metalwork" by Peter Parkinson that address the spiral railings, and a snippet in Whitaker's "The Blacksmith's Cookbook". Neither is sufficient, in my opinion, to tackle the stairs, but between them there is probably enough information for the railing portions of it.

I strongly recommend that you leave the farrier anvils to to the farriers and use an anvil designed for shop forging. Several years ago, I bought two of the Czech (German Style) anvils now sold by Blacksmith Supply
Blacksmith Supply
and think they are a decent anvil for your money. At 1/2 the price of an equivalent Peddinghaus, they are pretty good and in the same price range as you are looking at for the farrier anvils. The 260 lb (110 kg) anvil is one of my two main shop anvils and has stood up quite well. The 119 lb (50 kg) anvil is my portable for sharing events with the guild and so on.

The reason for buying a german style blacksmith anvil is that the mass is more centered, and the shape of the two horns are better supported for the heavier work of a shop. The London pattern anvil is more a compromise, and left over from the carriage/farrier/general purpose workshop era. The European two-horn design is usually preferred for architectural and ornamental work... thick and heavy, with just the right amount of supported horn.

I can't speak for the Euroanvil directly as I do not own one of those, but their prices are equivalent. If you are willing to pay a bunch more, the Nimba anvils from Washington State are probably as good as it gets.
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