Ed Thomas

Fred: If you are that close, I hope you go over there and check out the machines before you commit a bid. From the pictures of his many other machines for sale, it looks to me as though the seller bought a 5 gallon bucket of Navy gray paint and wasn't afraid to use it.

On the other hand, if you win a bid for 'pick up only', and the item doesn't match the description, it's a whole lot easier to mutually back out without too many hard feelings and bad feedback.

I didn't mean to foment a lathe buying frenzy. I was just trying to show that good deals abound in older machinery right now and one can be fairly picky. But good luck either way. If they don't go too high, both machines look like they would be fun to use and learn on.

Ahh.... he does such wonderful work. That is excellent news that you learned from him.

Another thought on the 9" SB.... If you see one you like and the price is right, there are plans for making the taper attachment for that size. In fact, those plans are the only ones I've seen for ANY lathe. Any other size lathe would require mods to the plans.

On lathe prices in general... a 10" Logan (arguably better made but the equivalent of a South Bend) is often available much cheaper than the 9" you were looking at. Here are three 820 models on ebay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-10-Metal-Lathe-820-With-Quick-Change-Gearbox_W0QQitemZ7630519818QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-Model-820-10x24-Lathe_W0QQitemZ7630559661QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/820-QUICK-CHANGE-GEAR-LOGAN-LATHE-FLOOR-MODEL-MANUAL_W0QQitemZ7631331334QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here is an example of a SB taper attachment pricing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/TAPER-ATTACHMENT-FOR-SOUTH-BEND-LATHE-9-10K_W0QQitemZ7630488308QQihZ017QQcategoryZ104241QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And finally, here is a 10" SB with a taper attachment you might want to watch to see how much it goes for:

http://cgi.ebay.com/south-bend_W0QQitemZ7631110123QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Archie: Who was the teacher?

Matthew: Except for the taper attachment, which seems to inexplicably routinely sell for $300+, that is not an especially desirable deal on a SB 9". For instance, a 10" SB on ebay with a taper attachment in VA just sold for a bit over $800. It looked in pretty good shape from the pictures. If you are searching for a lathe, you would be better off checking onto the Practical Machinist forum and doing searches on lathes. There are literally thousands of posts of advice on what to look for, reasonable prices, and where to get them. They even have a topic area devoted to the South Bend. There probably are a handful of us that know a little bit about machines on this board, but since it isn't the focus of the blacksmithing forum, you won't get the depth of help you will get on the machinist board.

www.practicalmachinist.com

So much depends on what you want to do with the lathe, how much you know about lathes, what your space requirements are, and so on. I disagree on buying machines that are "bargains". Only buy what YOU want unless you are very familiar with them. Chances are they are a bargain for a reason. Further, machines are not trivial to move, maintain, or store. If you can't use it, and you can't sell it easily, it will be VERY much in the way.

Precision machining tools need attention and maintenance. A $30,000 fine lathe can be reduced to scrap iron right quickly from neglect and exposure. So if you aren't prepared to keep it stored and preserved, it is a liability, not an investment.

However, if YOU want a lathe and don't know anything about them, and someone practically GIVES you one (which happens when people find out you want one) you should definitely get one. They are very handy in a blacksmith shop and a LOT of fun. An old South Bend is a good choice because they are so common, relatively cheap, and take a lot of abuse.

They also tend to look like all the rest of the tools in the blacksmith shop so your decor will not suffer.

To elaborate on what Johnny just said, if you make a test piece, then you know how much material you need. Since every part of the scroll is forged, the starting length won't be the same. If you forge a fishtail or ha'penny or taper or whatever on the end, and taper the scroll somewhat, and reforge the scroll length, then you wind up with a length that is the result of all that forging. So if you start with 4', do all your forging and then measure the result. Maybe it will be 52" now. Forge the scroll the way you want, and cut it off. As Johnny said, measure the leftover piece. Say that is 24" of original dimensioned stock. Now you know for an identical scroll, you need 24" of original stock that will be 28" when you have done your forging.

If you pay attention and are conscientous with your work, then close is good enough. I qualified that statement that way because I hate to give the impression that it is okay to be sloppy. But it is worth noting that scrolls are fairly forgiving. If you look at some of the superb gates, both contemporary and old, the scrolls all look uniform, symetrical, and beautiful. However, on very close inspection, you can see that the ends of the scrolls are all over the place. Not wildly different usually, but definitely varied. Some scrolls might be slightly more open to compensate here or there and the end of the scroll might point 10 or 15 degrees or more away from the direction of its companion scroll. So aim for completely perfect and identical, and the small variations will be just enough to give it character and warmth.

Thank you, Roger. Your pictures and fun in forging are such a treat. They always make my day. Thanks for sharing them.

Welding flat stuff is surprisingly easy, especially since it is already in position. I mean, it isn't drop-tongs welding where you have to put things aright before you can hit them. And with hinges, you don't even need a good weld. If you bring the strap around the back and weld around a mandrel, that's plenty good enough because the bolt holes will penetrate the front and back pieces anyway. Once you snug the hinge against the door or frame, the bolts will hold it together even if the weld isn't secure.

I've got a bucketfull of old strap hinges and the welds are all rough and completely obvious. Of course these are utilitarian hinges rather than ornamental so speed was an issue, but still... the rough part goes to the back and is never seen once the hinge is installed.

The welded strap hinge probably isn't functionally necessary with any steel you use, but might be fun for you to try.

Truck leaf springs: I got an entire pallet of truck leaf springs for free, some of them never used. Trucks are going more and more to air shocks. Just go wherever large truck maintenance is done and ask. They should be happy to give them to you.

Hollis: As I suspected, you already thought of everything obvious and then some. With 1/2" tenons, I am really surprised. They should be plenty big and sturdy. Maybe Mills is on to something with the steel itself being at fault. But you said it happened on several occasions so I assumed you were working with different batchs of steel. I am quite puzzled. If it were the steel's fault, your work-around would have fixed that also. At the very minimum, thanks for the info. I know it would have blown me away if it happens to me and I didn't have your warning here already.

Mills: I know what you mean about the cash for books. And the prices keep going up and up. I know they are well worth it, but there are several dozen right now I'd like to buy that are just out of the question for awhile. It isn't like you can go to the county library and borrow them either. However, our guild has a library and between occasional purchases and donations, we're getting better all the time. Maybe you can suggest one you want to your local club for a new addition. That way several people get the benefit of it.

Hollis: I didn't know that was possible so I think you are just making it up.
Did they always sheer right at the base of the tenon? That seems suspicious to me since if the tenon is of uniform strength, it should sheer randomly, if at all. With a radius on the bottom of the tenon, it seems even less likely to break there unless it is secretly fatigued already.

I have never had happen to me what you described. That is not to say I haven't sheered off tenons, but it didn't happen like that. How big did you make the tenon?

Another thing that makes me hesitate to blame your technique for forging the tenon over is that I do rivets like that all the time. And they never fail like that.

I've seen your fine work often enough that I realize you know what you are doing better'n most of us. Still, I'd look again for possible sources of fatigue or embrittlement. You got me curious enough I might try to replicate your problem when I get a chance.

Mills: There are actually quite a few Schmirler books. Each one is usually dedicated to some theme, and one volume deals with fundamentals, including joinery, as I recall. Sorry I'm so vague, but a walk through the virtual bookstores should get you close. I couldn't find my copy that I THINK is the one I'm trying to recommmend. I loan books out pretty often, so it might be a goner now. I got several of these at the last ABANA conference from Norm Larson because I could page through them and see what I was buying.

You should take the heat up to a bright yellow, not just orange or red. And don't beat on it below an orange. There is much more danger of ruining your work from hitting it at too low a heat than from heating it too often. RED is not hot for mild steel forging.

What kitchen implement are you making? From your concern, It sounds like spatula or ladle work. In that case be VERY attentive to keep your heat between yellow and orange. It is so tempting to keep beating on it because it cools so fast when you have it thin. But put it back in and pull it out before it burns. Know what you are going to do before you even reach for it. Be thinking and feeling the specific hammer blows as it comes out and be swinging as it touches the anvil.

I know, I know. You only asked whether you can heat too often. The answer is yes... but it's not usually an issue. You will normally ruin something with some other form of neglect or abuse LONG before you scale it to death.

Mills:

Joinery is addressed in many "how-to" books. The best one I know for going directly to the issue of joinery for modern application is Peter Parkinson's book: "The Artist Blacksmith". For clarity, I haven't seen its equal yet.

However, the CoSIRA books have an exceptional amount of information on joinery and design. They are free for downloading here:

http://www.countryside.gov.uk/Newenterprise/economies/craftpublications.asp

Every time I tried to home in on a particular section as a recommendation for joinery instruction, I got distracted again by the wealth of stuff in these. So I gave up. Just download them all and enjoy the entire set.

Along with studying and practicing basic join forging, find real examples and look at the infinite variations of these. Good picture books of gates, railings, etc., are wonderful inspirations. That way you'll have a better idea how the really good artisans exploit joinery and it will make the elementary study more meaningful.

There are many awesome picture books out there. The best might be the ones by Otto Schmirler. Most of these have a good bit of "how-to" information as well, and they go right to the top of spectacular forging.

Rick:

I am an admirer of yours on the Practical Machinist. I think you met my brother, Steve Thomas? So I know what serious-sized stuff you deal with.

I just emailed a very good working industrial smith in IL to come check out your question. He checks his mail late at home and hopefully will be along here tonight.

Strine: Thanks for appreciating the perspective. I remember the first time I saw the ironwork in the Washington National Cathedral. Very briefly I forgot I was in a church and thought I was in heaven. :)

Peyton: Whole books are (and rightfully should be) written about this topic. I have no idea where to start in answering such a question. As I heard someone say: "Learn the trade, not the tricks". I don't mean that in any way to be disparaging, but rather to point out that joinery goes right to the heart of blacksmithing. It is everything. The more I learn about the mechanical joining of iron, and the ornamentation of the joining, the better my forging becomes. We are blacksmiths largely because of our love of joinery itself!

Joinery allows us to make manageable discrete parts, and join them in mechanically sound, esthetically pleasing ways. It makes no sense to forge an entire stair railing from one piece, though I suppose it could be done. Instead, we draw the entire railing, and then study it to see what individual components are needed to make it become the drawing. Then we make choices about how to combine those pieces elegantly. That is the joinery.

Almost all of the arguments about the validity of welding (forge or arc) versus mechanical joining are disagreements about the importance of the point of union... the joint... to the whole. The more importance you place on that point, the more likely you are to search for ways to make it beautiful and harmonious with the rest of the forging. Many of us find the mechanical joins to be opportunities for beauty of the highest order in forging. It is our love of making ornamental functional joins that gets us in trouble with those who ascribe little or no importance to the esthetic value of that spot.

All elaborate, beautiful, complex ironwork is made up of lots of simple (or at least "simpler") pieces... which are joined in such a way as to contribute to its beauty and its wholeness.

That's why I don't quite know what to do with your question. Its so darn big.

Peyton: Learning joinery in iron is no different than learning it in woodworking. You study examples, both live and in books. You watch demonstrators and you go to classes. Not only is there an enormous arsenal of options in classic joinery, but modern artesans have been exploiting new architecture and innovative methods.

Go to the National Cathedral in Washington DC and spend a day just studying how the ironwork is put together. Buy books that illustrate joinery techniques you would like to master.

Find a master and ask them to show you something SPECIFIC. Don't just ask: "Show me how to do joinery". That is too vague. It also takes a lot of effort and practice on your part, so don't waste his time if you haven't done your homework. Instead, ask things such as: "How do I make a square tenon?" "How do I properly fit that tenon?" "When is it appropriate to use one?"

If you are really serious, there are one-week classes every year at almost every blacksmithing school in the country. Pick one near you and fork out the money.

If you have a particular question involving joinery, ask away.

I really don't like dirt floors. Either they are damp and everything corrodes, or they are dry and dusty. Most of my shop is concrete with the exception of the back 14' x 30' forging area. There, I put about 3" of gravel down with drainage pipe under that. Then a layer of plastic as a vapor barrier, and then another 3" or so of #63 gravel. It is nice for standing and working, but a real pain for moving things around.

The best argument I've heard yet for dirt or gravel is not that the surface is so much softer on your feet (it all packs down after awhile), but rather than it is NOT flat. By having a floor with some contour to it, your feet make contact in different positions as you move around. So you don't get as fatigued from the demand of one same foot angle.

Most of my shop has a 6" concrete pad and I REALLY like that. Much easier to clean and to roll equipment around.

Clinkers are normal. They are not bad for the environment. They are good for putting on your driveway and under your tires for traction in the snow. You can clear-spray them and call them art if your forging isn't going so well, which will allow you to still eat while you get your form back.

Super high grade metallurgical coal doesn't have much impurity to it, so won't generate much clinker. Decent bituminous coal that cokes well and generates good heat, will leave a fairly tidy clinker in the firepot. That should be removed when you first build your fire or when it interferes with your fire, but is not that big a deal. With bad coal, you don't get much coke or much of a clinker... you get low heat, a rubble-looking fire, and a lot of fly ash.

Rantalin: Clinker is not caused by too much air, it is just the by-product of burning the coal. If you are wasting coal by running the blower while not heating iron, your clinker will be bigger. You should definitely put a gate in any air system. See this discussion on blowers, particularly the comments made by Hollis about air control:
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=873

Does anyone else here remember running track on this stuff???

DonA: Thanks. I wonder if I can get some large O2 tanks into the system? Might be worth some phone calls.

jwb: Thanks for the feedback on the idea. I wondered how well they anchor and appreciate the warning. Maybe I'll avoid them after all.

I probably should have mentioned that I put 17 windows in my shop. That is because that is how many I had in my barn loft that my brother in law gave me from a remodeling job. It was a lot of work to put them in, but the lighting during the day is awesome.

JWB: Another, less traumatic, solution might be these:

https://www.confast.com/products/machinescrew-anchor.asp

That way, if you have to move your machine, just unbolt it and put bolts in the imbedded nuts to keep them covered from debris.

I haven't done this yet, but didn't realize it was an option until recently. Until now I've been putting in concrete anchor bolts, but this is probably my next light machine mounting solution.

Don: That is not a bad torch. It is somewhat lightweight, and you will have to buy bigger tips after awhile.

The welding tip is really small for most blacksmith work (spot heating rivets and so on) and the cutting tip is really pushing it to cut 3/8". Depending on your tank size, you'll probably want a rosebud tip after awhile, which is good for local heating and bending. All these can be bought later, but the total can cost more than if you get them in the original set.

Here is a link for Victor:

http://www.thermadyne.com/victor/

Here is an example of the tip sizes needed for cutting:

http://www.fitchindustrial.com/cutting_tipchart.htm

I strongly urge you to go to a welding store and talk to them. You will need to see what they carry to supplement your new kit even if you don't buy one from them. So you might as well get comfortable with them before you buy yours to make sure your torch future is an easy one.

If you aren't familiar with using a torch, ask them to show you how to use it and operate it safely. That information alone is worth any difference in price and will put you in good graces with the welding store. They always like it when you admit your limitations so they know how to help you.

There is an Airgas (bought BOC Gases, I guess) about 40 miles from me and they have always been good to me.

Are you considering buying your tanks from Tractor Supply? I saw that you can get the larger tanks there now. That has always been a source of frustration to me; that you can only buy small tanks and lease the larger ones.