Ed Thomas

I seem to have hit a nerve. :shock: I STILL think there is a bit of irrational fear. I heartily support letting the fire go out. It is better for forging, more economical, and much safer, any of which is a sufficient reason. I do not use water in my forge ever. If the fire is wrong, I build it right. When it is time to quit for the day, I pull it apart and let the coals go out. It doesn't take long.

Having said that, I did build my new shop with an eye toward having a much less flammable workplace, and will breathe much more easily when I'm moved into it. The coal forge is not really much of a concern... it is sparks from welding, cutting or grinding that always make me nervous.

Please don't get indignant at me for advocating unsafe practices. I never leave my forge fire banked overnight. But I do think it is actually less dangerous than an awful lot of ordinary household hazards that we get awfully cavalier about from the greater familiarity.

OKay, Okay... I know this subject has been beat to death in forum after forum but I never paid attention to it because I normally don't mess with period demos. HOWEVER, last night I agreed to demo for a mid-1800's heritage days sort of event in the closest city to me (about 40 miles). Now I'm NOT going to try to find a costume, but I do need to know what to do about a hat. I have to wear a hat when I'm forging, so I might as well try not to be TOO obnoxiously out of era with my typical ball cap that says "Centaur Forge" or "Stihl" or "Massey Furgeson" or whatever. Sooooo... what goes on my head on June 11th???? :?: :?: :?:

I have less of a safety concern about the fire than practical concerns. After all, If you have a fireplace, you leave that on all night. My woodstove runs almost all winter in the middle of the living room. So if you really want to leave your forge smoldering all night, make sure the fire is so contained that it can't burn your shop down. No windows open and so on. I'm not recommending that you do; I'm just saying we sometimes obsess about the forge when we routinely take greater risks inside the house itself. Coal is pretty stable stuff.

However, I think it is a bad idea for several other reasons. The smoldering coal doesn't leave a clinker, it creates "fly ash". Yes, you get a bit of coke out of the smoldering process, but you get too much loose debris, in my opinion. This stuff blows around everywhere and raises the percentage of impurities in your fire while you're trying to do things like forge-weld two pieces of mild steel together.

I've mentioned before that awhile back, I timed how long it took for me to build a fire and have a forging heat. At seven minutes, I had the head of a RR spike yellow hot. Start to finish. Admittedly, I wasn't goofing off then as I usually do because I was timing myself, but the point is... as Glenn said... it becomes a routine and you just build it right into the day. The firepot should be cleaned at least once a day anyway. This is the time to do that.

Strine:

Beautiful work that makes you feel good and smile to look at. Thank you very much for sharing. (sound of much applause) :!:

Glenn,

If someone is actually going to try to make these, I will gladly offer what help I can. I just don't recommend it really. I thought they would be much easier than they were. I'm told that when they were available in hardware stores until recently, they were quite salty. I got the impression a set would cost $1,000 or more. I can see why!

I tried to cheat and use existing large tongs. It just doesn't make it. You have to carefully custom make tongs for each tool. The blades have to be JUST right, and match perfectly in every direction.

When I get some time, I'll take some more pictures. I did discover a way to make a VERY nice handle, like on the end of a snow shovel. They are used on two of the tools. Though there is a good bit of welding and grinding, the elements themselves are forged. I will try to blueprint those sometime.

I'll also try to post some pictures of the individual tools if you want.

Glenn,

Sorry, but no. They took us quite a few weeks (maybe two months, off and on) to make and I couldn't begin to describe all that goes into them. I'll try to get some pictures up of the various tools with a general idea of how they are used.

Basically, my brother brought a worn out set of roofing tools to me, and I forged everything that could reasonably be forged... and fabricated the rest. Without the model in front of you, or a REALLY close familiarity with how the tools are used, I don't think they could be made, even with detailed blueprints. I was reverse engineering them, and now that I'm using them, find faults with how I did things here and there.

Another problem is that two of the tools were cast iron at the business end. We cut and welded and machined as close to original as we could get. I think our result is much superior... but it was a very laborious process.

My brother knows how to use them, and I'm learning now. The only way to get these tools now is to find them, since they are not manufactured any more. New construction standing seam roofing, I'm told, is done with fancy electric seamers that take a lot of the drudgery out of the process. The reason for keeping familiar with these tools is primarily to be able to re-roof old structures where the roof is not straight and even enough for the unforgiving modern tools.

As far as the strictly forging work involved, you could say they are just big tongs and let it go at that. :mrgreen:

My brother and I made the roofing tools late last year, and finally get to try them out. We made two sets, each of which has 6 tools. The novelty of shaping sheetmetal roofing with our own custom-made tooling wore off a little earlier than I hoped. But we're still chugging along.

In this picture I staged one of the bending tools on the bend it made. This particular run will go on the end of the roof. I'm learning this from my brother as we go along.



In this picture, you can see the stacks of 30 already prepared sheets. This is enough to do one side. Each sheet is just over 19' long and just under 24" wide.



So my shop chugs along, which is why I have so little to share in the way of forging work.

Woodtick: Nobody answered your question about charcoal dust directly, so I guess you'll just have to try it and get back to us. Actually, I'm sure the charcoal dust will do some good. I presume you are referring to actual good charcoal, not the barbecue briquet dust, but either one will probably work. The lubricant is actually what's left after the coal dust burns away. Unless the charcoal dust is 100% pure carbon, there ought to be some benefit.

Tyler: VERY nice. Thanks for sharing these. It is always such a treat to see the other arts, especially from someone connected to iron.

JimG: Yeah, I realized that was there after I posted these. I made them up on the spot after the lost anvil reference. Oh, well... back the regularly scheduled Poll: "Just how messy a boy ARE you??" :o

Jr: I think we could probably paraphrase the Jeff Foxworthy lines that made him famous....

If you've ever -- [fill in the blank] -- you might be a blacksmith.

If you've ever lost your anvil and the stump it was on -- and tried to locate it by calling out its name -- you might be a blacksmith.

If you've ever burned your woodwhacker buddy's hunk of flawless Koa wood as fuel for forge-welding -- you might be a blacksmith.

If you've ever burned a 1/2" hole in your forearm and didn't notice till the smoke from your flaming shirt blinded you -- you might be a blacksmith.

And so on.

Oops. Dan, sorry for hijacking this perfectly good thread. My shop is in... er... flux... so to speak. I'll get back to work now...

:shock:

Glenn:

They were so purty, I didn't know what to say. Glad you thought of the right words. Does that mean that "Store-boughten" is a compliment to welders???

It is clear that Junior is a valuable resource here by these shots, that's for sure!

Glenn:

It's probably worth mentioning that BGOP only accepts the first 300 reservations. The facilities just can't handle any more than that, plus staff. So it is unlikely that there is any more room for this year's event, though it can't hurt to try. In any case, drop-in attendance is just plain out. I watched some pretty indignant people escorted off last year including a very huffy elderly lady. In some ways it is a shame more people can't go because it's such a wonderful event, but on the other hand, it's size is part of the charm.

...ummm... do you have any more categories???? :oops: :oops: :oops:

Hollis: EXCELLENT! I never thought of that and it makes perfect sense. I fabricated a cone cap (chinaman hat) before and watched the smoke. It sure seemed like more baffle than its benefit warranted. I'll try that next time. I'm aiming at ALL stainless for anything metal outside the shop.

Dan,

I presume you are making the handle out of wood? If so, to take Hollis's recommendation a step further....

Drill a hole in a piece of wood FIRST. Then you'll know where both ends of the hole are. Carve the handle based on the holes. Otherwise, you will have a devil of a time coming out centered without a lathe or boring machine. Even on a lathe, this is the best way to go.

Also as Hollis recommends, you can braze (or weld) a drill bit to a piece of round steel to make a LONG drill bit. Just make sure the new shaft is smaller diameter than the drill bit or it will bind in the hole. I've used this technique on steel, too.

Anybody else from this board gonna be there this year?

Stephan: That is VERY interesting. I never heard any follow-up on that discussion before and your comments make a lot of sense. I'm sure this is valuable to far more people than me!

John Larson: Thanks. Without any adult supervision, that design was pretty much my plan because I'd seen it at Bob Kidd's shop years ago and it looked simple and effective. However, I was a wide-eyed neophyte then, and was completely absorbed in the demos by Bob and Peter Ross. I didn't study how good that exhause layout really was, and it's the only one I ever saw personally like it. My interest is that you can put the chimney outside the shop and not have to do any cutting or fitting of the roof. My plan was to build a block/tile-lined 12" chimney and run 10" flue horizontally to it as you described. Maybe I should make a run up to your shop one of these days. There is more than this to learn there, I'm sure!

Hollis: No matter what chimney I put up, I suspect I'll follow that general capping plan. Thanks.

Rain rain rain. Can't put the roof on in this weather!

Ten Hammers: Thanks. (One of those forehead slapping motions) I knew exactly what you meant as soon as you described it. I was sitting here thinking of my post hole digger and well-digging... and couldn't place the pipe anywhere on any of it. We used elevators and blowers, but I don't remember using any auger elevators, though I have seen them.

Initially, I don't plan on a ceiling or insulation. I've been working in a pole barn for years, where only one small section is (loosely) enclosed and floored. Just getting out of the wind will be a MAJOR luxury... never mind the space. I had to borrow to do most of this, and I only took enough to get a shell up. Everything else will have to be pay as I go. So you might say, if the shop earns its keep, then it gets to be warm. :mrgreen:

Me? Just a shirt sleeve... and a dog. "Hey, Ed... you might want to put out your dog." "I mean OUT, not outside!" oops. :shock:

But my favorite story I've heard so far was by Doug Hendrickson. He described a demo he was doing while wearing a ragged T-shirt. He was using a torch to heat his piece and knew his shirt was on fire but didn't want to break the flow. Spectators were yelling to him and he just ignored them... and as he finished heating and applied the finish... he tore off his flaming shirt in one motion with a flourish, used the smoking tattered remains to buff the finish on. "...and that's how we do things in MY shop."

Ten Hammers: Thanks. That is very helpful. I had no problem following what you were describing. The space between trusses is 2', which should be plenty of gap. Not sure what auger pipe is, though. Is that a liner used when well digging?

JimG: I expect you are right. However, I recall a discussion quite awhile ago on Keenjunk, to the effect that precipitation almost never comes straight down... it almost always arrives at an angle. That was the principle behind having an outer, wider chimney welded on the top of the external flue. The rain, hitting at an angle would arrive at the inside lip of the flue extension, and just slide down and out the open bottom of the extension... never even touching the real flue. It sounded reasonable to me, but that solution would mean additional area susceptible to leaks, not less. Also, another advantage of the wide outer sleeve was that it left the exhaust completely unobstructed.

I know I departed a good bit from what you were saying. I just meant that the cover would have to be pretty big to cover enough roof to help... and then it could be an exhaust obstruction. That being said... if I use a metal outer flue, I'll probably follow your advice on the cap. :)

JimG: I'll check on some roof exhaust options. A good friend has already done his with a commercial package and is happy with it. But it was at a pretty stiff cost and he only had to go a fraction of the height I'm facing.

Stephan P: I checked with my brother (he's doing most of the construction -- I just do as I'm told) and he seemed to think it would be just as easy to install the roof and then cut the penetration if I decide to go that route. You are kind in your choice of adjectives to describe my behavior in housing animals, hay, torching and forgework all in the same homebuilt pole barn. I had to get rid of the horses when I quit work to do forging and goofing full time, so it hasn't been QUITE the fire hazard it once was. But the 4' concrete knee wall was mostly because I'm tired of having to be SO worried all the time.

SGensh: Thanks. The bank was there first. I do hope to avoid the auxiliary exhausting fan. I never like the noise they make either, in the shops I visit that have them.

Hollis: I am going to look into your design suggestion. It is sort of a hybrid solution that might be the ticket. As you say... I don't need to go behind the forge... I haven't done that for years.

John Larson: I didn't think of that, but you are right! Of course now I'll have to put a weathervane on top of it... hmmm.... this could take awhile...

Steve K & Stephan P: Thanks. I've got more to think about now, obviously. I appreciate it.

Bruce, before the board crash, you had asked a similar question... an alternative to tar. Did you have any luck? I just bought some neverseize... or something like that... I'll have to go look at the can... at a tailgate to try out. I realize you're usually working bigger punching than most of us.

Been too busy in construction to forge lately. I got a local co-op opening in two weeks and no inventory!

Bruce: If I weren't in such a danged hurry to get back up and running, I'd do exactly that. I'd hoped to build the shop from stone, since rock is free and plentiful all around me... but realized that when I'd be done at 120 years old, I probably would be too near retirement to use it much. I haven't ruled out a stone forge, but it will have to wait. I like working stone.

NOW you guys recommend the window! Note that I already placed them toward the sides of the end wall... not in the middle for the very express purpose of putting a chimney there.

Hollis, the side draft sounds good to me, except that I don't see how to incorporate that so far above the forge.

One way to use the pair of 45

Dave of the Other: I like that idea... side draft directly to a T... but that is impossible because the forge floor is 4' below the outside ground. You solution is good because it sort of eliminates one of the 90