don schad

PS. a "Couple" of questions is 2, not 6. :)

Psycological tricks - if I had said "a long list of questions" would you have kept on reading? I had to get my toe in the door. ;)

Thanks for the four recommendations (but who's counting, right?).

Thanks,

don

Hi all,

I am considering driving to get a forge with a Champion model 50 blower/rheostat which hasn't been turned on in 10-20 years. It was stored inside nearly all this time, the last year or so under a tarp. It is a 115V model.

Exactly six questions [Edited: was "a couple"]:

Is there anything I should do prior to turning it on to ensure that it doesn't fry itself after the long sitting? Anything I should make sure is cleaned out, etc? Is there anything the sitting idle can do to make such a model not work? Apparently it need a new cord externally.

Also I can't seem to find good pictures of a model 50, so I was wondering if it is possible/straight forward to replace the motor should this be required? Can the motor be removed and a new (modern) one be swapped in without much trouble? It would be nice to use the actual blower casing/fan should the motor be no-good.

Finally, I'm also not sure of the years when a model 50 blower was produced with the rheostat. Anyone have any comments on the production times for this? It is mounted to what looks like a pressed sheet forge with angle legs (not cast).

Thanks for any input,

don

... you can actually forge and the axle will last longer.

What about a harder axle and have it sitting on a soft plate (soft plate between the bottom of the axle and the PH die). The flat plate will deform but the axle will stay rounder, longer. Make the flat plate easy to remove/replace and then you can really wallop without fear.

don

It backs up the edge a bit more than a straight V, it's a common edge in knifemaking though.

I thought you were just describing it, but now I see it is a technical term...I searched "apple seed" and "knife" and I got it.

Thanks.

What are you slitting and what temperature do you do it at?

My tooling is S1 and H13 with fairly short shafts. I dress as needed but don't notice it being worse than hand hammering the slitter through.

I would say I have a more "appleseed edge" on my slitters smoothly transitioning to the drifter part on those that do.

Have you tried one of the high tech punch lubes if you have a lot to do and so worth the extra effort?

My most recent disappointment was probably some 5/8 round at orange-yellow (1800F?). I did use some graphite powder in the hole but I have since gotten a bit better lube (graphite/wax mix which paints on nicely) which I used for drifting and find to be pretty effective. I've probably tried some Never-Seize also.

I might try again with the improved lubing method and maybe make more of a V shape, which is what I take "apple-seed" to be (rounded, curved V)?

Thanks,

don

What shape cutters are you who are having success using? I have what is probably a #4 or 5, and I haven't been too happy with using it for slitting or slot punching. My cutters tend to dull and mushroom pretty quickly. I've tried slitters (sharp end) and slot-punch shapes both with square ends on the wide (i.e. not V like some of the handled punches I've seen). Unfortunately I can't seem to cut through the work very quickly, and I end up having to regrind them nearly each time. They were made from S7, forged and left to air-harden (probably in still air, not blown compressed).

But the FP is great for straightening and for drifting, assuming there hole is already there.

don

[Edited a couple of times because it was previously incomprehensible]

Everyone seemed to be having so much fun with their hydraulic presses that I finally decided to pull mine out of the corner and give it a try. My intent was to make a swage by pusing in a 1" round fuller into some 5160. It didn't exactly work out how I had planned:



I was watching the work, not the frame, and I was pretty disappointed that the jack was barely putting a dent in my steel...or at least the steel where I wanted the dent. I guess sometimes 12 != 12.

don

Thanks Jeremy: I see that the LG25 and LG 50 linkages are different. I'm thinking a brake that comes up from the BOTTOM from an extension of the clutch lever would work on mine. Maybe a steel cradle with some leather strap or belting glued/riveted to it? The first picture of my hammer shows the yellow lever that comes up when you let off the pedal. I think I'd put the extension on the yellow arm and go UP to the flywheel?

Hi Eric,

Everytime I look I see a different configuration of LG's, which I don't think are strictly related to the poundage, but more to the era in which it was built. As a result the direction in which things move might be different and the side on which things are mounted change. Depending on the setup you will need to figure out the best way to get from here-to-there in order to lift or pull and how to change the direction of the motion (i.e. downward treadle = upward brake).

In your case, using your clutch lever you will need to change the direction from down to up to get the brake released when you depress the treadle. On mine this is accomplished, as JeremyK noted, using the rod in a tube with tabs which are oriented 180degree differently. Peacock uses a different apprach with the pivot in a through-hole in the frame, but note that in the 2rd picture his arm is moving in the opposite direction yours will move, so your linkage will have to account for that. KYBoy's has yet another variation.

don

Peacock can you tell me about how much spring force is required for the brake?

FWIW, mine brake seemed to require a lot for force, but I expect that as I improve the brake band (improving contact, more grabby material) that I can reduce the tension...but that said, the spring is still relatively small, about 1.5" long with a 5/8 diameter, not a garage spring or anything like that. I also hooked mine to a bolt with a nut so that I can change the tension for fine tuning.

I understand now - it wasn't clear to me that the nylon was the backing, I was thinking that it was leather + nylon + steel backing.

I will give the leather a try a somepoint down the road.

Thanks to all for the suggestions and advice.

don

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses. I was thinking that the leather would get slick with the oil, but it sounds like this isn't the case. What thickness of leather do you use? It would seem that the thicker the better...I was considering putting 1/8 of neoprene under my lining to make it more "squishy" to counter-act the fact that my crankplate hasn't been turned. Also my brake band is a bit thicker then some of the other descriptions I have seen with people using 16g, I think mine is 1/8th, so it won't deform to the shape quite as much I guess.

Peacock - what is the leather with a nylon backing? Is it nylon strapping, or something thinner? Is the nylon's main utility in the curving back from the crankplate to make the release quicker?

Thanks for everyone's responses. I will see about upgrading to some leather.

don

... I tried to search on big blu and air hammer- both came back that I needed words with more than 3 letters and you can imagine how many hits i got just searching on hammer...

The search facilities within the site are horrible. You can also go to google and do a site-specific search:

site:iforgeiron.com "big blu"

I got 269 hits with the above.

don

Hi,

I finished a brake for my 50# LG a while back and wanted to post the pictures for reference. It generally follows the methods put forth by the likes of Clifton Ralph and Sid S. of LittleGiant and many others, as found on the internet. It is mostly finished with a few tweaks and some cleanup remaining:
My first impression from using it was the it really increased the pressure required to depress the treadle. Without the brake, which has a return spring which is hidden in the right-side tube (where the tube is part of the spring-guard mount), the treadle was super-light to actuate the clutch. The addition of the spring gives it much more resistance, although I can fiddle with this to change the amount of pressure required (by adjusting the return spring). Initially it felt like a really large change, but now I am used to it so I don't think it is a problem. I might be able to decrease the spring pressure if I used a better brake pad - currently it is a piece of outdoor carpet. I know leather is popular but I am wondering if I should change that out with something else. The oil is a bit of a concern which the carpet seems to suck up. Regardless it does stop on a dime as currently adjusted.

I have found this to be a super addition to my hammer. It makes using tooling, both handled and those using a tool holder much easier. The ability to stop the ram at the top of the stroke makes getting tools into position a lot easier - no more rotating the flywheel by hand or feathering it up to get something in position. Chisels and punches are a lot easier for the same reason, and the ability to confidently get one hit almost always (you can end up getting multiple hits if you stop the head at the bottom of the stroke as there is still motion in slide/spring - and actually these hit a lot quicker because the motion is only the couple of inches in the spring compressing/decompressing).

Overall I'm now firmly in the "build a brake" camp. It has really increased the utility of my hammer.

don

Looks very nice.

How is the flatter part retained? Is it free or are there a shoulders on the inboard side of it? I see the notch but not sure what it is. Also, what's the screw do?

Do you have a pic from the side or front?

Thanks,

don

So I ended up going with the wood: . A lot easier then the concrete and it seems to work well. I definitely like the increased height. I have two layers of 2-by for the base (each layer running opposed to the other) and a 3/4" plywood directly under the hammer. Four - 1/2" carrage bolts connect to the base from the underside (these were counter sunk on the bottom so they weren't touching the floor).

I have to make a treadle extension so I can work without having to lift my foot as much and drive some bolts into the floor to keep the hammer from wondering around.



don

If the axle is just kissing the supporting die, wouldn't it be quite durable with full length support, compensating for a smaller axle?

Phil

The axle has flattened a bit in the middle (below the center of the plate where most of the pounding happens) and as a result bent a bit so the ends curve up slightly. It doesn't seem to impact the performance but perhaps over time maybe it will? Maybe if I used a harder steel (I think I used mild, or a cut-off bolt) and a mild base that would help, it would make its little groove in the steel and ride there.

don

Looks good. I don't understand "117º block" though.

Perhaps my 117deg block reference is a bit obtuse... so see the attached picture.



In the foreground the is flat tilting table removed from service, in it's position is a mock-up of the 117' table. Idea is a combination of the lore which says that to taper pipe/tubes a 117 deg V block is really-great (fast, prevents collapse) and the original intent of the tilting table (to follow the angle of the taper and make it smooth). So the thought is that it would be quicker/easier to get a smooth taper on the tube w/o collapsing it. Holes in the theory include not being sure if (a) it makes any sense or ( it would work any better or © if we might need a hand-held V on the top to make it work; however, it is clear that someday there will be a need for a non-flat tilting table.

No doubt, and we are ready.

Any thoughts welcome,


don

For what it is worth, I put together a similar tool a while ago based on posts found around IFI, etc. Mine has 1/2 a tilting table with the other half a removable die. I put in a fuller so that I can chunk it out and then taper without fooling around with the tooling.

When the fuller is off you can remove the tilting table to replace it with other tilting shapes...I was thinking about having a tilting 117deg block for doing tubing, although I don't know if this would be worthwhile or not.

I tried to make it as short as possible to retain the daylight on the hammer, as a result the axle might might not be a stout as we might like. But it works well thus far.

don

Thanks for the input. The wood sounds like a sure bet, but I'm still wondering about the extra mass of the concrete (and if it will stay together). I post something when I'm done.

Thanks,

don

I've kinda been wondering the same thing only I need 10-12'' thick.......Are you setting it on top of an existing concrete floor? Setting vertical rods in the original floor to prevent lateral movement seems a must.......But whether or not a small cast slab can take it is the question.......I mounted a 250 utl on timbers after having to remove it from a 2.5 ton foundation and it was a sad transition.........

It would actually be on a brick floor, so I could remove a layer of bricks and get another 3" or so. It currently sits on a piece of 1/2 plywood on the bricks...I don't know if they are actually bricks or pieces of bricks under it at the moment.

If I recall correctly, I read somewhere (perhap Sid S's site) that the LG plans were significantly over-engineered in terms of size, but there wasn't an indication of by how much.

I agree that rods would be required to keep it in place if it were on top of the floor. If I sink it the additional portion perhaps the wouldn't be necessary (although it could cause trouble if it pushes up against the bricks).

Mine tends to process clock-wise (I hear they go the other way in the souther hemisphere).

don

Hi all,

I would like to raise my LG 50 about 5 inches or so. I commonly see that people use timbers for this, but I was wondering about using concrete to get the extra mass. My question is whether or not a 6" concrete pad would survive for very long or turn to dust quickly. Ultimately I would like to pour a larger/deeper foundation but I don't want to do that until I'm completely confident that I wont want to move the thing across the building, or rotate it 53 degrees one way or the other. I am also speculating that the timbers would take some of the ooomph out of the hammer.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

don

Hi Don, this is for a 50 though.

Hi,

Sorry, for some reason I was thinking 25#...anyway, the appropriate values for the 50# are just different by 1/2:

(from the Kern reprint:)

1 1/2" between dies when sitting in the lowest position, and this adjustment is appropriate for "nothing" to 2 1/2" diameter, 3 1/2" flats on edge.

If your spring guard makes it difficult to adjust the height you might consider re-engineering that attachment. If you keep the wrench and 4x4 handy changing height can be very quick. If you have to work things that are broadly different a flatter can be helpful to make up the difference.

don

Is there a rule of thumb for die adjustment when working with different material thickness.
With the flat dies in it now I was able to take 1/2" round down to 1/4".
What about 1.5" x 3/16" for a strap hinge?

In Kern's book there is a reprint of the original LG instruction sheet (single page). Regarding height for the 25# is says:

"...crosshead is set so that dies are approximately 1" apart when crank pin is at lowest center. This is the approximately correct adjustment ... for nothing up to 2" diameter or 3" wide flats ... edgewise"

So the lowest position should work for your flats.

You can experiment and start to feel/hear when you need to move the head up. Sometimes it is a tradeoff of power verses flexibility...for e.g. if you are forging wide flats on edge you can optimize for power for the wide dimension, but you might not be able to rotate it 90deg to flatten it without tooling.

don

Does the crosshead stay in position on the pitman via friction?
I looked at the parts diagram on the LG site but didn't understand how it tightened up.
Can't imagine how it stays where you put it with all the oil on it and movement of the toggle arms and ram.

The crosshead has a slot and is compressed with the big nut on the left side of the crosshead. Your spring guard appears to be mounted on the stud which is responsible for the compression. So you need to loosen that nut (or both if there are two nuts on the stud) then you can slide the crosshead up - this is fairly easy to to if you first put a 4x4 on the lower die and then rotate flywheel until the spring starts to compress (because the lower die is pressing on the wood). Then loosen the nut and continue turning the flywheel and the crosshead should slide up the pitman. Re-tighten once it is in the position you like.

Note that on the new style LGs it is possible to move the pitman arm up too far such that the ram will crash into the spring (i.e. the pitman has 2.5" of travel, but only 1.5" is usable). I don't know about the old style, but you should check that things aren't going to bang together after your adjustment...or at least squint your eyes and tilt your head to the side when you start her up...

don

Could you do a quick sketch of what you've got in mind. You've piqued my curiousity with a rubber coupler.

Pretty simple, but a picture is worth 1000 words:



So the rubber is sandwiched between the rigid rod mount and main tup. The thinking was that if the dies hit some iron which is off-center and want to twist that twisting motion will be absorbed in the compression/expansion of the rubber, instead of the rod fighting it. Or at least that is the theory (not necessarily related to any particular reality).

don