youngdylan

Thanks Phil.

I always used to be someone who built a lot of my stuff (2 air hammers and 15T press amongst others) but given it's my full time job I'm finding it's generally better to bite the bullet and buy something ready made. I've hardly done any research but it seems kilns can be got for around £100. Some sort of (programable ????) digital controller + thremocouple + switching (???) would be a few hundred more. I kinda assume that utimately the controller works by switching the kiln on/off as appropryate. I kinda assumed the clever ones looked at the rate of temperature change to do some fancy calculations as to when to switch on/off ......but I'm way out of my depths here.


Looks like it time to research (google) temperature controllers cos I just won this kiln.

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...:EOIBSA:GB:1123

Thats like $20 !!!!! and its only 25 miles away. One more toy to add to the collection

I like using 5160 from car springs. They're readily available, are usually free, and require no heat treating. Glad you all like the jig. Thanks!
John

Hi John

Good to thank you personally, that jig is just wonderfully well thought out. Thanks again. Gonna scale it up to use with 20mm bars with 12mm reins for larger tongs. I've got a stack of truck coil springs around 20mm dia bar. That said I'm kinda one for buying in known quality predictable steel these days, usually its not too expensive. I've just ordered 5 bars of 3m x16dia EN8 (1040) at £8 each. Gonna spend next week banging out tongs.

Would it be pushing it to ask about tha bolt tong jig you mentioned.

I'd never really thought about using the proper stuff, kinda assumed it would be hyper expensive. Guess if I'm gonna get a kiln (the 6kW one I've got my eye on eye is going for £2.44 with 2 days to go ) I might as well go the whole hog and get some oil. I was looking forwards to the bacon fat though.

Im pretty sure Grant uses a fair amount of 1045 in tong making? Nice job by the way. Sure nice to have the ability to afix those jigs in your hammer hu?

If it's good enough for Grant it's good enough for me .... he gives a lifetime guarantee aswell, gotta be tough stuff.

Actually I was kinda wondering about heat treating and the effect of heat in use...... all that stuff is still a black art to me. I've never used 1040 before. Is it best to use it as forged or heat treat it after making them. If so how does heat from the forge in use affect the temper, can they be dipped in water to cool if they get red. I can't be the only one who gets his tongs jaws occassionally red.

This jig more than just rocks, it is absolutely completely and utter bl**dy wonderful. I just ****ing love it. One of the best bits of kit I've made for a while. Just love it. Thanks again John Emmerling.

I've got it down to 2 heats (with heat to spare) to make the blanks. You can do a lot of drawing on it in the first heat. It does help using a gas forge and 3 off 25-40kg hammers right next to each other though.

I'm so glad I used 4340 rather than mild....... I'll be using this tool A LOT.

Did I say I just love it?

The photo shows the reason I made it, tongs to hold various tooling for under the treadle hammer. So much easier having the tool ready clipped in the tongs rather than constantly swapping over. Went for tongs rather than punched eyes or welded handles because the tools mostly get used form varying directions.

I just love this tool. I always put off making tongs because I was **** at making them, they seemed to take froever and were always **** Kinda quite happy with them now.

Anyone got any suggestions for jigging for bolt tongs?

I love this tool.

As far as I know it's the accepted wisdom never to use tongs with any sort of weld under a power hammer. I've always assumed that is because of weakness.

Picture shows a page from Lillico's book on power hammer tooling. Just about universally regarded as the bible on the subject , has been since 1930. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't one of the pictures halfway down show a weld. That said he does say "this method should only be used when no steam hammer is available". Kinda sounds like, to me, he means no steam hammer to make them.

Glitter,to keep those Pagan women happy.
A BIG box of expanding floor space/square footage.
Masonry wall repair kit(for when he comes out of the closet and moves into a real world shop)
Airline tickets to Seattle,to visit Larry and see what a real shop looks like.
Little Richard CDs
Phi Zappa poster

......hmmmmm ........."comes out of the closet" has another meaning over here

I'll settle for just the expanding floor space.

Where in the overhead are you gonna put it?
Pretty soon you`ll have cornered the market on beam clamps,snatch blocks and rigging in order to store all your toys "at the next level".

Garage at home. Actually I regularly store work in progress there. There's two motorbikes in there but not a hope in xxxx of getting a car in there. Theres also some racking etc for the new workshop ... when it happens ....... and a 500kg 360 degree jib crane (led flat) that will also come in good for the next workshop. Just too good a price to pass up on Office is at home too. Yeah vertical's real useful

One thing I am pretty strict on is warming of hammer tools before they are used under hammers, especially in winter, and winters here are not like they are for some of you. Using a cold tool under a hammer is a sure invitation for a breakage. Depending on the configuration of the hammer we will also put heating blocks between the dies of hammers before we start our first heat of the day to take the chill off them so as to prevent fracture.

That something I hadn't thought about before. It's generally ok over here but I do get the odd real cold morning in the workshop

I think it a good idea to be able to grip the punch with vice grips or mole wrenches when the iron your punching is hot.
Rob

Your hand is by far and away the best thing to use if you can stand the radiant heat, if not use tongs ...... but they are a very poor second as regards feel accuracy and speed all of which matter.

In short,I hope you and others play it safe and keep all your parts intact,Cap`n.

Thanks Bob!

How does skipping the oil quench and simply tempering to "a bit above" blue sound for those quick and experimental "as forged" tooling. Quick to do, maybe not optimally treated but hopefully safe to use???Though that said, some of those quickies end up being used for years.

On a related note I've been using used motor oil for a quench. This one habit I'm gonna loose cos those fume just simply smell TOXIC. I generally do it outside but the smell still seems to linger around the door for days afterwards. From my little knowlege, it seems (all) about the rate of cooling, viscosity etc. How would vegetable oil do? Maybe I could even collect the bacon fat from my grill and add some to the pot?

I just ordered the ASM heat treaters guide and a heat treating oven or salt pot is something I feel I should buy or build soon so that I can do things a lot more accurately.

Looking on ebay smallish (5-10KW) pottery kilns seem to go for a few hundred quid or less. I kinda assume these will do as heat treating oven ? Is there any about a heat treating kiln that makes it different than a potters kiln? Maybe with a more accurate (programable?) temperature controller.

Take all advise with a grain of salt and endeavor to understand "why" as much as "what". In the end only you are responsible for any consequences.

I keep trying to gen up on heat treating via books etc to get to grips with the WHY but it doesn't seem to sink in to much. Even for someone like me with an "academic" background all those graphs and terms get abit abstract. Guess advice on what works from seasoned pro's is just as invaluable. Despite the manufactuers advice about not tempering at purple, it does seem to work for me ... or have I just being "getting away with it" for to long

In my early days my (limited) tooling was made from coil or leaf springs (what ever steel they maybe) and it was just a few minutes to bang a shape on the end, dip in oil, let the residual heat take it to purple. That's still really as far as my heat treating knowledge goes. That said I find I'm spend a lot more time doing quite complicated tooling and this thread has pretty much convinced by to get a kiln ........... yipeee, new toy.

Getting together a "care" package for youngDylan.

• Tower computer
• Hossfeld bender
• cheap Chinese mole wrenches (long)
• cheap Chinese Beverly shear knock-off
• picture of a great Acorn table (sorry, real one won't fit in box)
• case of Spam
• Webster Dictionary
• What else?

.....100T screwpress ...... though I would settle for for a 30T

.....Flypress with a wheel for a flywheel as opposed to flyballs (you've already noted the pipe lagging on mine)

Actually I've got one of the knock off Beverley shears. Had to do quite a bit of fettling to get it usable. It's stood up well so far but there again it rarley gets used. I've knocked up myself a Hossfeld frame and some of the simple formers but some of the more complicated ones are beyond me. It a wonderful tool to have,I keep humming and haaing about rigging a hydraulic cylinder to it .... but there's only 24 hours in day.

Nice!

The police offices where fantastic , i just hope they get these "2 " before my son & i do or at least let us in the room with them for 5 minutes because i will kill them if given the chance

I am generally someone on the left/liberal side of things but I really do believe killing them would be too good and quick for them. Perhaps killing them VERY slowly and painfully would be more appropriate in this case. All my sympathies to you and your family

They gotta be available over there.You fellas are closer to China than we are.

They gotta be available over there.You fellas are closer to China than we are.

We're closer to you guys than we are to China (I think) but we still don't get some of the goodies that you have. Acorn tables, Hossfeld benders, Beverley shears, blacksmith scaled induction heaters .......

Its my first commisioned piece, and the first thing ive ever made Ive sold !

Wonderful stuff John, quite a change in scale from that sword of yours I saw.

first thing you've sold??? You been giving them power hammers away then.:)

If you like that sort of thing then go down to the nearest boatyard and ask about short pieces of rub rail.They were use on many different types of commercial boats and when drilled and plug welded to the edge of a forming bench do come in quite handy when forming sheetmetal,plate,wider work and such.
You can also just dog them down to your platten(Acorn table)and use them that way too.
We used to keep a few widths and different radius pieces around the shop and used them often for both hot and cold work.Had to keep the tin knockers from running off with them though.That`s when we started welding them to the benches.

I think I once saw something similar at an auction. They were like big "stakes", maybe 4" wide with a D shaped cross section, about 3 to 6 foot long. I still kick myself for not getting them cos they looked real useful. If the ebay ones were a little nearer I'd bid for one. That would be yet another reason for me to get a "dogging" table. Dogging over here also has another meaning.
.

I think Lidl and Aldi are the closest we have to HF!

and?

A simpler design. Ya just need to keep it from jumping out yet free to rock. Should be a little less than 1/2 full circle, but not much.

Im pretty sure Grant uses a fair amount of 1045 in tong making? Nice job by the way. Sure nice to have the ability to afix those jigs in your hammer hu?

Yeah I'm quite a fan of bolt on dies but agree with Grant that dovetails are the securest way of fixing them. Bolt ons are great when you want to a quickie or experiment. I guess I've got the best of bothworlds: 2 bolt on Kinyons and an Anyang with dovetails. Still could do with something in the 2cwt range with big flat dies ..... could also do with that 30t screw press of yours ...... and an acorn table ..... and an indu ........AND MORE ROOM

I 'offsided' when making a newel post. It was a long square taper about 900mm long, also about 40mm at the big end and 25mm at the small end.
The corners were also knocked in.
We used two of us, one on the bar and me on a 'round-back' or 'rocker' block. Alot depended on a good roughing out. Sorry i don't have a pic.
regards,
AndrewOC

We possible have different terms over here. What is offsided? Is the round back a flatter tool flat on one side, curved on the other?

The oil flashing temperature is in this range and getting dies in the high 40s to 50rc is in this range as well. According to the ASM heating to 450C will take 4340 to around 43rc http://www.asmintern.../OMM061908.pdf. This seems a LITTLE soft to me?

Scuse my ignorance, whats oil flashing?

What this means is it is not a good idea to temper 4340 between 200 to 450 degC if you want to use it as a tool subjected to impact or sudden stress. Using the colour method of heat treat will give you a temper range smack bang in the middle of these temperatures.

Kinda wondering If I might have a few time bombs (Grant's predators) lurking around my workshop. Photo shows some hammer dies machine from a 4340 billet (supplied as "black" or annealed). Heat to orange red, quench in oil and from memory tempered at light blue ...... could this be a severe case of oops at sometime in the future. I must say in their defence they have stood up to a few years of abuse including a fair bit of cold work.

I've ended up using 4340 for most of my tooling cos I got a "lifetimes" (1) supply from an auction a few years back. To date is has proved pretty tough. Just about the only problem I've had is drilling some of the as forged stuff. Annealing seems the hard part.

Already started looking one ebay for a pottery kiln.


(1)said lifetimes supply seemed a mountain when I got it , few hundred kg, only thought I use a few bits of it, few years down the line and I'm starting to top it up

We have used 4340 in the normalised or as forged as forging tools but not as punches etc but as stamping tools under the hammer. It seems to hold up OK so long as you quench the tool after each time it is used or at least at the end of each heat, depending on how long the job stays in the tool and how hot the tool is getting.


Phil

Phil what do you guys refer to as stamping and what is punching?

I am right in taking what you and John B say as meaning it's generally okay under the hammer/press but not when struck with a hand hammer?

Here is the tong offset tool I mentioned much simpler than the one in the video but not as complete. The other tool is for forging the eye offset with a stopper built into it. The nice thing about making a pair of tongs this way is that the hinge has nice round edges because you are just flattening a round bar.

Yeah, that rounded bit is nice isn't it.

Not known for my patience so I spent all yesterday making a similar jig and playing around with it.Never like just using mild steel so cut up and faced various lumps of 4340. Halfway through started to thing I'm gonna waste a whole day, this might not work, should be earning some money. .... End of the day I was patting myself on my back for having the stragegic foresight to make the jig. IT IS ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL ..........Thank you John Emmerling, this is one seriously well thought out and extremely useful jig.

One heat to work the jaw area, one heat to rough draw the reins, one heat to swage the reins. Bish bosh, Bob's your uncle and you've got a well formed very accurate tong blanks. Apart from shaping the jaws to suit and punching the hole, I didn't use a hand hammer at all; the jig is that accurate.

I'll now spend most of today making tongs. I used 16mm round but next week I'll scale it up to use 20mm for larger tongs

Anyone got any thoughts on using EN8 (1040??) for tongs ?