youngdylan

I've just bought this kiln to try to get to grips with proper heat treating. Not blades but jigs, PH and other tooling. Mostly 4340

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110563439221&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

There's no temperature controller with it but there's plenty of VERY cheap ones on ebay. They're almost too cheap. Does anyone have any experience of them. Or has anyone got any advice on temepertaure controllers/thermocouples in general. Maybe I should go for a programable controller, eg with times, ramp up ramp down etc?

Pics of the top and bottom dies for bolt tongs for my Saymak 60kg. Could be adapted to any hammer via a 4 post die setup working from the length of the dies. The "Monster" of metal has my jig, so I can't show the process. Blame him!
John

Thanks again John. Kinda busy for the next few weeks but thats one more to my ever growing "to do" list.

They can mar the work surface of your part.
They can allow portions of the anvil surface to break free under impact, possibly with a lot of energy.
Looks bad.
Anybody got anything else?
Phil

In the early days, before I "knew" what I was doing (very little change there then) I hard faced some mild steel dies I made for my Kinyon. The rods were marked HF-425 if that means anything to anyone. It was super hard stuff, barely grindable. The face is full of thoses marks. I thought I'd dropped a b******k welding them. I did use them for a a fair while (out of ignorance of the danger) and they stood up to a remarkable amount of abuse all things considered. I now make all my dies from 4340.

The "micro texture" they impart on to the work is just wonderful in it's own right. I often texture copper sheet using these dies, it's such a subtle but beautiful effect.

http://www.verdigrismetals.co.uk/assorted/sidegarth%20textured%20copper%20letter%20box.htm

I wouldn't recomend them for serious forging but for texturing with light blows ....

If you're curious you can see my thoughts on repairing anvils at

http://blacksmith.org/forums/threads/405-What-s-so-special-about-anvils-anyway?p=1595#post1595

It's so we all know how to make reversing levers and knock-offs,; the industrial equivalents of coracles and morris-dancing.

Look further Sam, see past the steam engine, read between the lines, study the why not the how, open the mind ....... the book has a WEALTH of information. I constantly refer to it for inspiration

I think it might be too much stress on your striker Many of the limiting blocks built into the jig wouldn't function as neatly with a sledgehammer. I think the flippy thing for forming the offset in the first step could be a handy anvil tool. IMO the rest could be done the traditional way over the edge of the anvil just as easily as with a tool.

Also, in hand-forging tongs I was taught to hold the tong(?) at a 45 deg. angle in the second step (jaws off the far edge, eye being flattened) so that the shoulder of the horizontal jaw material would extend back into the vertical section of the eye. This almost doubles the cross section at the root of the jaw, one of the places where I have seen many tongs broken. It looks like this should work with the jig as well.

Yeah careful aim with a sledge hammer would be needed, maybe if there were two of you "at it" you could maybe use a flatter or wide set hammer.

45deg,can be done on the jig but I've just ended up doing it straight but pulling the eye a liitle further from the edge, doesn't weaken it too much

as fc says it's probably just as easy by hand but if you want consistantly accurate results for lots of tongs, it's great .... but then again if this were the case you'd probably have a power hammer

OI! blokes this isnt a lingual discussion on the good old days of the english language!
i am looking for genuine advice, not an old fogies look at chaucers great works.....

Trying to think of any Aussie writers, only one I can think of is Germaine Greer ........... the word great doesn't spring to mind in this case

Oops, appear to have ineterupted again B)

Atmospheric forges are often a PITA to tune but you don't need much air for the average sized forge. I put a 60 cfm squirrel cage from WW Grainger on my Sandia style aspirated forge for no more than about $35 (this was a few years ago but WWG is still a pretty good source for little blowers). Add a needle valve inline to control the fuel and your problems should diminish substantially.

H. Is that the Sandia recuperative style forge. I keep mulling over experimenting with one (one day). The heat from my 3 burner gets unbearable in 400 sq ft. It should also cut down on fuel cost at run the forge hotter. A win win win ..... if I can find the time.

Got any pictures/ info?

i wonder if a jug like this would work welded to a plate to be fitted into the hardy and then hit by a striker, or would that be too much stress for the hardy?

I think it proabley would. I use the jig on my 25kg Kinyon and its not used at full tilt when shaping the jaws. I use the 40kg Anyang for drawing the reins. I guess it depends on how heavy your anvil is. I've got a 200kg Brooks and would quite happily use it. Make sure the "business" side of the jig is on the "anvil" side of the hardy.

This is a great new section (toolmaking). Very impressive thread here.This is a very efficient process and high end thinking and equipment involved. There is also the other extreme, which I use, only because I don't have the equipment. Maybe not the capacity for high end thinking either If you have a bucket of old tongs accumulated one way or another, it is quite efficent also to heat the jaws and joint area and resize and/or reshape to do new things with old tongs. Also it is very satisfying to me to hand hammer new ones into what I want but at a little different pace than the videos of course.

Anvillain

Before this jig that was usually my approach, modify existing tongs. Either resahpe the jaws ....... or mig weld bits onto the jaws.

He does mention that the method should only be used if none was available.

so what's the book for then?

Clifton Ralph showed making a jig similar to this for bolt tongs (although I think I sketched the handles on the wrong side since IIRC they are perpendicular to the dies). I made a set of these many years ago after his power hammer tapes were released but had problems controlling one good hit on my power hammer because the workpiece tended to bounce and move off center; I believe a fly press would have been better for a controlled "squish".

Thanks H.

I was at Johns shop yesterday and stole the jig in the video and got to see the bolt tong tool. I'll post some pictures once I have my copy built

I'm all eyes

Well, if no steam hammer was available to make them then then perhaps we can assume that there still won't be one when it comes to using them!

That would be a bit rum for a book thats pretty much all about power techniques and tooling.

oops, looks like I need to research my maths, that should have been £31 is approx $40. Still pretty good though

four ....... he's got four the lucky xxxxxxxxxx

well said

Used to be popular to use French words, but now even that's passé!

Is that the same France that one of the Bushs said had no word for "entrepreneur"?

coo-EE!
you reckon you could splash some of that good oil over my way now?
just a few wise words on the dismantling and transport of this bugger.
i dont want to go into this negotiation half cocked, as it were.
i want to show this bloke that im the man to take it off his hands.
i dont want him to think im coming the raw prawn eh?
thanks mate.

I just love listening to Aussie banter, pure poetry

Sure, theres lots of other kit surrounding my little forging corner but it doesnt get used

I'l have it then

Actually that's the great thing about black/blade smithing. You can start with a bit of rail road track a small blower (hair drier?) and a readily available chain store hammer hammer ..... pretty much how I started out........ and then progres by making,finding,ebaying,buying kit up to whatever level you want, either as hobby or to earn a living. I JUST LOVE IT. I can't think of any other trade/craft that is as accessable, challenging and do-able on such a wide range of levels as this thing of ours! JUST LOVE IT.

Kidderminster is only about 30 miles from me, if you need one collected... The chap with three looks like a dealer.

Thanks for the offer Sam but is probably just as easy to get a pallet courrier to pick one up direct.

OK, so ive probably got £4k+ in my setup,

...and acess to all the stuff in your Massey work shop John. Little bit more than 4k there. :D

We're all learning to speak Spanish now! Next we'll all need to learn Chinese!

keep trying to learn Italian myself, absolutely love the country but I guess I still struggle with English

I'm not too concerned about using new steel for tongs as I don't make them for production/sale...and I'm cheap and love finding junk! Tongs are expendable and when they're toast, I make another pair. Usually I have some extra blanks pounded out ready for adjustment. 5160 is pretty tough and holds the work well. It's hard to ruin 5160 tongs.

The jig for the bolt tongs is made and works well. As my top dies for the Saymak 60kg air hammer do not recede into the tup cylinder wall like the Chinese hammers, I am able to attach the top part of my jig to my dies. I will modify the jig to be used w/o attaching to the top dies to make it more universal, then post a youtube vid. Thanks for asking.

John

John

I'll bang out a load to replace my previous collection of generally s*** tongs I've made in the past. I'll make a stack of blanks (with longer jaws) so when I need a particular tong I'll just pick up a blank and shape the jaws accordingly. I'm not adverse to mig welding bits on to the jaws.

I'll try and find out the English equivalant of 5160 and order some in when I've used up the EN8 I got. What else do you use it for ?

Looking forward to your video and yeah the tup going into the bore is a big drawback to the Anyang. That said my KA75ish Kinyon is ok for that.

Joking guys Just saw Sam and I know how much he love vice grips


Rob

he does love them but just won't admit it, even to himself. What's not to love about mole grips .......oh no not again :D

Interesting...

I had a friend who built movie props and sets.. What he did he referred to as "vise-grip" engineering... Most of the time they would build complex parts several steps ahead held in place with vise grips but not welded to see if it would work before making it permanent... I want to combine the two and call it the soap/grip method? maybe chalk-vise process?

close cousin of the "suck it and see" school of engineering