Pneumatics for Power Hammers

[Steve]

Can someone help with a flow chart to set up the valving and switches for a kinyon style small air hammer

[ajclay]

Can someone help with a flow chart to set up the valving and switches for a kinyon style small air hammer

That's one of those subjects / questions there doesn't seem to be a right answer because everyones skill level is different, and smiths use air hammers in different ways.

There's a bunch of different ways to do it. From the simplest air valve to the most complicated setup that NASA would use.

So you're in the same boat as I. That's the subject I'm on in the post "New Style Kinyon Project/Drawing" I believe it starts on page 8. I've been building one for a few months. Not operational yet...

Your hammer.... is the air cylinder on top the ram or on the side as the "new style Kinyon"? That makes a difference too.

Take some photos and post them. It always helps to see what we're talking about.

Later, Aj

[SGensh]

Here's a diagram for the simplest form of the Kinyon style hammer. The part numbers are immaterial but it is important to have as much air flow as possible through the valves so be sure whatever you use has the largest CV or flow rate you can find using your rources of supply. If my opinion you have good flow and a properly sized cylinder for your ram weight most of the "improvements" are uneeded. Lots of these hammers have been built with very small diameter cylinders which exagerates the difference between the rod and plain sides of the cylinder, it's better to use one of relatively large diameter and moderate rod diameter for more balanced action. The original Kinyon plans call for a ball valve at the end of a very long tube as the throttle, replace that ball valve with a butterfly valve which is designed for throttling applications instead and mount it as close to the main valve as you can. Use a linkage from your pedal or treadle to the throttle valve. The improvement in control is quite noticable. The hammer these controls are on has a ninety pound ram and uses a three inch (nonstandard) cylinder. It does single blows reliably and runs fast also. Good luck with your project. Steve G

valvedia1.pdf

[ajclay]

SGensh has some good points. I glad he mentioned about the butterfly valve. I attached another drawing I picked up here on IFI that's easy to follow. Just a hand drawn one. And another one that has a bunch of colors.... really wasn't much help to me.

Also, these are for the old style kinyon..

Take care, AJ

[ajclay]

I keep forgetting to put this attachment up. It's a document ".pdf booklet" from Norgren. I got it from one of their tech guys. On the vary last page it has a part number brake down that will tell you about the spool valves in the "Nugget 500" series.

The more we talk, and I mean guys on IFI, the easier things get.

later, AJ

N-500 APC-102.pdf

[ajclay]

Here's a diagram for the simplest form of the Kinyon style hammer. The part numbers are immaterial but it is important to have as much air flow as possible through the valves so be sure whatever you use has the largest CV or flow rate you can find using your rources of supply. It does single blows reliably and runs fast also. Good luck with your project. Steve G

Steve, Nice drawing. Easy to follow.

Having an under-size cylinder for the hammer might be why some guys say putting a regulator on one side of the air cylinder makes a lot of difference. And others with a larger cylinder don't see a need for it. That's a good point you made and it makes sense to me. Those drawings I put up both show a regulator...

Having a spring return on the spool valve.... any wants or needs there?

I just got a little understanding of what's going on the last day or so, it seems just to be personal preference, and what operations the hammer is being used for.

Also, how do you get a good single blow? Have you just learned where get the ram to, or stop it at for that operation?

Thanks for helping out.

Aj

[SGensh]

AJ, I'm a big fan of simplicity when it's appropriate. That's why I use a spring return shuttle valve. In my opinion it's more important to achieve overall good control than to have a lot of extra adjustments that need to be fiddled with or extra parts to add complications. (Again just my opinion, no intention of starting any arguments.) I think that one of the bigggest control problems with most Kinyons is the non linear performance of the ball valve and it's usual location way down the line from the shuttle and therefore the cylinder it's trying to control. Along with this is the fact that most hammers seem to be plumbed with air lines of too small a diameter leading to pressure and flow restrictions. All that leads to sluggish performance which costs both power and control. If you look at that PDF I posted you'll notice I suggest relatively large diameter lines (including the pilot valve line). A hammer with good flow and little restriction will be a "snappy" runner- it will accelerate the ram quickly and just as quickly try and turn it around. Any of you who have run one of John Larson's Iron Kiss hammers will recognize exactly what I am talking about. You don't need to do anything special to get a single blow out of those hammers- just stomp the treadle and quickly let off. One Bang; and variable in force once you get the hang of it. My Kinyon style works the same way and everybody elses can too with very simple upgrades to valving and plumbing. Of course like anyhting else you do develop a feeling for how you work the throttle or treadle for consistant control. Most of us aren't going to walk up to an unfamiliar hammer and get it perfect right off. Steve G

[ajclay]

AJ, I'm a big fan of simplicity when it's appropriate. That's why I use a spring return shuttle valve. In my opinion it's more important to achieve overall good control than to have a lot of extra adjustments that need to be fiddled with or extra parts to add complications. (Again just my opinion, no intention of starting any arguments.) I think that one of the biggest control problems with most Kenyon's is the non linear performance of the ball valve and it's usual location way down the line from the shuttle and therefore the cylinder it's trying to control. Along with this is the fact that most hammers seem to be plumbed with air lines of too small a diameter leading to pressure and flow restrictions. All that leads to sluggish performance which costs both power and control. If you look at that PDF I posted you'll notice I suggest relatively large diameter lines (including the pilot valve line). A hammer with good flow and little restriction will be a "snappy" runner- it will accelerate the ram quickly and just as quickly try and turn it around. Any of you who have run one of John Larson's Iron Kiss hammers will recognize exactly what I am talking about. You don't need to do anything special to get a single blow out of those hammers- just stomp the treadle and quickly let off. One Bang; and variable in force once you get the hang of it. My Kinyon style works the same way and everybody elses can too with very simple upgrades to valving and plumbing. Of course like anything else you do develop a feeling for how you work the throttle or treadle for consistent control. Most of us aren't going to walk up to an unfamiliar hammer and get it perfect right off. Steve G

SGensh, thanks so much for the reply. When this subject is brought up, it's been talked about so much I believe a lot of guys are just burnt out on it. Any subject just gets old after a while. And too, they just don't want to get into a "heated" discussion about it either. Can't blame them..

Steve (that started the post) as well as I, need all the help we can get, and myself I'm relying on you and a few others to help get me going. Just a few pointers and comments go a long way.

We all have to start somewhere learning about how to build our tools and even more importantly, how to use them...

Thanks again!

Aj