lupiphile

Hey Larry,
After having reviewed Mr.Krause's book and then double checking my 2b ( she's conveniently all opened up right now), I think I can at least answer the stroke limit question. The compressor side displaces nearly twice as much air as the ram requires to do it's stroking. This means that the compressor side starts acting on the ram faster than you might be thinking.....

Though at that point it is like a see saw, its like a see saw made of a very flexible board and a fat kid with really strong legs on one side. you see if the fat kid pushed hard enough, and gravity overtook his upward momentum fast enough the skinny kid wouldn't be moving from ground to sky every cycle. He would be moving at the same beats per minute as it were, but his upward or downward momentum would always be being controlled. The valves, in this horrendously articulated metaphor, would be controlling the springyness of the board. Full treadle = concrete board, 1/8th treadle= willow board.

All that being said, It looks to me ( and really, you're much, much better qualified than I) like air leak city. I'm sure you've checked all the gaskets, rings ect. how 'bout that silly leather ring that helps pressurize the cavity under the ram. also you checked the ball spring arrangement in the bypass? No air leaks? Druthers be mine I would temporarily block that off in some manner to eliminate it from your trouble shooting. Another good indicator is it's clamping ability. Does it clamp?
For the valves, If you're seriously thinking that they are the problem you could always go the turnbuckle route, that way you could feel out how much pressure is going where, by carefully adjusting each one while the hammer is at Idle.
Oh I've just thought of a modification to the see saw analogy, The reason the "willow board" still allows the ram to come down from the work is the weight of the ram it self, it causes the the whole elasitc system to shift incrementally downward with just the slightest stiffening of the board because the ram always wants to go down.A Gravitational Differential. I think I'll name my next band that...... I sure hope this helps, I wish I had a better analogy but I'm only on my 3rd cup of coffee today. Take care, Larry, were pulling for ya'. Matt

Mr.Dillon,
That's a very interesting website. How is it, they have such high heat values with such tiny blowers? also are those burners for propane or nat. gas(I'm assuming nat gas).
Do you have the pleasure of knowing any glassholes(that'll pass the censors right?) in your area? They often work out of furnaces, that your average blacksmith would consider....ambitious. The 2 glass furnaces I've gotten to inspect and have a conversation with thier builder were about the size your considering( a hair wider, taller, not as long). One was heated with two fairly large ribbon burners on natural gas, the other was oil fired. I found the oil one befuddling as I had never seen an oil burner up close. It seems (oil) is a rather popular choice in large industry though so there must but some advantage of economy of scale.
Have you PM'd that kindly australian man? He has to have an answer. anybody who jury rigged a manipulator out of a forklift, has to have a passel of solutions for accommodating someone with the desire to work larger, right?
Take care, Matt

Mr.Dillon
Out of curiosity, why so much wood? is that customary? I'm contemplating doing a "proper" foundation for my 2-b( as opposed to just plate) and I'd be interested to your insights as to the advantage of more wood/ less wood. Living in philadelphia, the post industrial wasteland that it is, I would have no problems getting a surplus of nice old growth hardwood, if there would be an appreciable benefit. Take care, Matt

P.s. do you hire apprentices to follow you around with a vacuum cleaner? How is it possible your constantly engaged in these giant projects without the slightest bit of clutter? is this just your show shop? Is there a filthy sweaty walled sub-basement, rife with snagletoothed coke-addled minions producing the future of forged sculpture, and custom motorcycles aplenty? It just boggles the mind.......

I'll bet ten to one Tom Trosiak has something to do with the creation of this hammer. In which case, its still 7 grand cheaper than a new phoenix. but still,....... 10,000?

Oh boy, Oh boy this is a fun game. I wanna join in and I promise to tie this into the original post.
So as an emigre' to this fair city of brotherly love, I couldn't help but notice that what's spoken around these parts, is to the english language, as velveeta is to cheese. Water is "Wooder" (hard d), Radiator is "Rat-e-ator", Mozzarella is "Mootz-er-el' or my favorite, just mootz". Whilst the person who works with bricks is still called a mason, the type of work he/she does is, paradoxically called, "Masonary work". The first time I heard that, I thought it to be a charming vernacular contraction for a mason that went to seminary school, or one that maybe works for the pope, but I was wrong. The street I live on? Westminster ave.Stand on the corner, point to the sign, and ask any passer by what it says, why "west-min-i-ster". My joke is, Philadelphia is a poor place but they make up for it with a wealth of vowels. Chaminoix blvd, is "shaminy". Wheat chief ave is "wit' chif'". Honestly, its like nobodies even trying. Ironically Philadelphia became a hot bed for the old " speak english or go back to where you came from" camp a little while ago, when xenophobe, troglodyte, cheese steak slinging Rhodes scholar, joey veinto enacted a "Order in english or no steak for you" policy, wherein the naton wide rebuttal was " Who knew that guy knew how to speak english?"
So back to my original point. If the Nazel hammer co. was, in fact, a Philadelphia based company, then the last thing you should do is listen to them, as to how to pronounce anything. Take care, Matt

Thank you for the info, stewart. The whole pm/messenger feature I find befuddling. Sorry about that. some friends of mine have a fairly bustling blacksmiths night every friday in west philly, plenty of tools for everyone (anvils, hammers, power hammers ect.) feel free to email me or call if your in the neighborhood. my current shop is at 41st and haverford ave, but am in the process of moving farther southwest(in philly). Matt 727-365-5593 m2bforgedmetals@gmail.com

How big is the motor, how smooth running is the jack shaft, and how permanent is the shop space? the only ceiling mounted motor/lineshaft I've ever worked around made the ceiling sound like an active bowling alley, but it was very old and very rickety. It might be a wise investment of time and money to make the hammer and motor one single and (comparability) easy to move package. I will emphasize, old mechanicals I have little experiance with, so I'm sure there's better to listen to people around here, but my guess is the more you work, the more stained your relations shall become. Thusly a formulated exit strategy, is a good thing. I assume you don't do this for a living? I ask because most hobby smiths find it convenient to get into their shops at the same times normal people are trying to relax in their domiciles. just some things to think about. Take care, Matt

P.s. where in philly are you ?

Alright, This is seeming less and less crazy, thanks ya'll . Nay, the nazels at the old shop were all on the first floor, but when they were de-installed it was revealed all they sat in was about 2 1/2" of crushed oyster shell! Ive seen a pretty funny picture of abunch of smiths standing around the pit staring into it with confused befuddlement.

Jeff Funk built pretty much exactly what you're talking about, but not quite that big. Try giving him a call. You can find his buisness phone via the interweb just type in jeff funk bigsky montana. I had a question about wood block floors a couple years ago and he was very friendly. He also has a pretty big collection of hammers so maybe he'd be able to point you in the right direction. Take care, Matt

Thanks for all the imput.

Larry, I figured you'd chime in with a heartening " can do" response. You're right , in the grand scheme of things its really not that big of a hammer and it does have a significant anvil to tup ratio, so thats something. BUT just when ive just about convinced myself , I have an intense moment of vacillation, akin to what john N had mentioned. I used to work in structural steel so I have an Idea as to how I'd go about shoring up the floor, but still I just feel like maybe there's something huge and unseen that I might be overlooking.. Iwas just wondering if anyone here has, tried something like this. or even heard about something like this being attempted.
I'll definitly get some pictures in the next week. Its just such an enticing space, and with owner financing, its like a messed up abandoned dream. Take care, Matt

Sorry about the lack of pictures thus far. I live In philly in what some would call the the "Ghetto" thusly most of the real estate agents are either fly by nighters, or uninterested in the listings they've been sadled with in my zip code. As a result I've yet to get anybody to come down and "show me" the building. so after about three days of unreturned phone calls, I figured out the combination to those little realtor locks( the one s that hold the key) and let myself in. It was dark. very dark. so no pictures as of yet. I did some measuring. and some leak testing, then called the realtor back to let him know that I let myself in and I was still serious about the property and let him know about how the neighborhood tire place had been dumping tires in the side lot . He didn't seem suprised, about my tactics or the tires. Thats kinda how things are around here. I then went back in the day time to show my fiancee( look hon, one day all this will be yours) thankfully she too likes messed up abandon buildings. Her first comment was " this one has a roof, are you sure you want it?"
As to the shoring, I have an Idea as to what might be sound(ish) but it still seems like such an off the wall project, I was just wondering if anyone had ever tried anything like this before. thanks for the replies, matt

howdy ya'll,
I might have the opportunity to purchase a beautiful old building, that used to be an ornamental iron shop long ago. floor to cieling windows, ibeam braced roof( hello bridge crane!) and a loading dock, ohmy! BUT and this is a big one for me. most of the building has a basement. I mean the joists are like 6" on center and theres piles of I beams and structural steel columns everywhere also with about 4" of concrete on top of the middle portion of the floor but still. Its mostly air not earth under where the shop would have to go. I'd have no misgivings about drivng forklifts all over that place but I do have a two piece 2b and I'm just not sure if anything would accomodate that in such a building. I mean I could build a masonry column and fill it with umpteen yards of concrete but that seems a hair on the ridiculous side. Any of you have experience with doing large work on a second floor?

Hello there,
I'd strongly suggest going to the abana website, going to the member website list, and cold calling anyone whose work you find captivating. This is how I ended up working for samuel yellin metalworkers, and as a result where I still get most of my work from(clare). I had been working structrual steel but knew I wanted to move into architectural forgework but had no Idea how to make the transition. I had thought about calling all of the forge/ fab shops in the area, to get hired, and then glean some skills to move up to a high end shop, but after talking to some of the local um, "talent" , I realized I should start trying at the top and work my way down. Thusly being , of course, aware of the yellin shop, I cold called them, I went out there, and about a week later, and was hired on the spot.No experiance required.I still work with clare, and am in the unique position of being able to have full access to the yellin archives. Best of luck, Matt

Well thank you much, Larry.

I still intend to expect the worst and hope for the best, it's my nature.
If I can become a little more technologically adept, in the next few weeks, I'll post pictures of this whole mess.
Thank y'all for the help, Matt

Thank you Larry, I believe you speak from a sound frame of mind, and with a position fortified with the logic of experience. It's an incredible thing to have such easy access to such a wide body of knowledge. You're absolutely right, it is a risk, a rather large one and with all of the proviso's I've been given, I will gracefully except a passel of I told ya so's, when this turns to a life destroying mess, so long as y'all will still help me out by giving me sound advise. even If I'm a stubborn fool who doesn't always listen. That's more than fair. And If it does work out, any of you all are cordially invited to my shop. I'll buy the beer.(hell if it goes horribly, I'll still buy the beer, just more of it) I do have some background on these hammers. Mr wallace had been involved with the maintaining of several of the hammers, including this one in the years leading up to the plants liquidation(incidentally, kerry, from baltimore) and this one was one of the last working on the floor. It has air leaks all over the place, and that is, according to bruce, mind you, the primary detrimate to the hammer. I have mark's book on the operation of self contained hammers, so I under stand "air leaks all over the place" could be, infact a death knell for this hammer, but on the up side the company thought the hammer was worth enough to spend 2000$ dollars on the motor, a few thousand for bruce to machine a new tup, and for bruce to machine new guides. Incidentally the new guides seemed to fix the parelellarity(sp?) issue and the new tup was never installed. Bruce has kindly proffered to give me that new tup as part of the deal. He seems to enjoy the fact I'm in philly and has thus far has been extremely accountable. He shall be here when the hammer is installed and has invited me to his shop to give me a bit of a run down on the parts of this hammer. it's also a lobdell, so its not necessarily a hundred years old. Its not as if it was dragged out of a river or anything, but that being said, I'm ready for a project. I have access to a very large lathe, and your standard size bridgport knock off mill. A master machinist I'm not but I'm comfortable around them both. Like I said I don't need this hammer running tomorrow, and I intend to fix it right. I'm very patient.
On the three phase, I am going to wait until I have the motor in front of me to decide between a rotory, or a vfd. I like the idea of having three phase capibility at my shop but a vfd seem to be a little cheaper/ feature laden. I'm not hugely comfortable with electric issues, and don't like hiring people, so vfd are attractive, but Im sure i could figure it out, if the cost savings made it that much more enticing. I've yet to come across a cheap, large, three phase motor. And no, I can't say I've been to anykind of blacksmithing event excepting the last conference in memphis. And I must admit, rather sheepishly, I wouldn't have gone to that if I hadnt've been paid to be there( I got charged with picking up the yellin gate, for clare) I'm not too much of a joiner. Peacock, thank you, for offering help as well. I can assume you've been through this before?. Alright, back to work now. Thanks y'all, Matt

Hey there, Thanks for all the forewarning. I really am taking all this seriously. I have a working hammer that suits my needs pretty well, though Its my ambition to get into some bigger stuff, hence why I'm thinking of investing in what I know to be a project. Maybe that big work is 3 years and 10'000 dollars off, maybe sooner and less, I don't know yet, but I'm steeling myself. I'm doing my best to not spend a huge amount before I know what work is needed, once again because I've lurked about this forum long enough to learn from y'all's heartbreak. I do need to have somekind of power source to be able to determine some of the problems, also it needs to sit on something to work on it effectively.Three phase of some kind would be a handy thing to have available, so I'm not hugely worried, and as for the foundation I'm thinking something along the lines of a timber corral and enough concrete to make my floor level(obviously there's a limitation to how thin you can pour the stuff in good faith) nothing permenent, nothing (too)serious. Space is currently not to huge of an issue, though we'll see. It's also my ambition to get a new shop before winter, as my shop is completely unheatable(42' uninsulated cielings, busted windows,no real walls, oh my!) so I shant invest hugely in immovable things like a foundation(but maybe steels the way to go?)
Larry I'm sorry to hear about the 4b, I had been following your progress with the whole install thread, best of luck.

Kerry, I might just take you up on the offer. I'd love to get a good look and even better information from someone so much more wisened to these sort of conundrums.

When you guys mentioned mark, you weren't talking about mark krause were you? I had a blast talking to him at the conference last year and I'd hate to hear he'd been unfairly subjected to the machinations of the man. It seems like everone I know has had legal troubles recently.

Anyway thanks y'all, Matt

Hey, thanks for all the advise, this forum can be a wonderous place. After tossing numbers around I looks as if I'll probably go with a vfd. But I shall wait until the motor is infront of me so I can get some advise on compatibility issues.Ric, I totally understand now how simple of a mod. that truly is, thanks for the video. And now on to the foundation! Actually I have to negotiate the moving of a 48 foot airplane wing before I get to that(I share space with a bunch of modern sculptors, you never know what will turn up).
Does no one want to share stories of abject calamity and heartbreak? Or at least near misses, that ended well? I know 90% of the ire thats produced in my day comes from inanimate objects smiting me(or city agencies) and I can only assume this ire shall grow proportionally to the size of said objects, aren't you'all in the same boat? So share and share alike, it'll be therapeutic. Take care, y'all Matt

Hey this is quickly turning into a much more interesting thread than I originally intended. Larry, I absolutely believe you and its not without serious heart palpitations that I've considered such an undertaking. I also know you've had, what could affectionately be described as crappy dealings with mr.wallace, and its through my awareness of such things that I'm taking everything about these hammers with a grain of salt, fully expecting for everything to be a worse case scenario. But I know myself, and Iknow I'd never get around to justifiying the 13000 dollars or more it would cost for a "plug and play" 2b. At 7000 dollars for 2b's FOB and a 350$ shipping quote(My best friend is an owner-operator, of an 18wheeled- flatbed) I decided to jump. hell they'd scrap out at 2700 or so excluding the motors, and I'm sure I could do better if I sold the parts piece meal. It just seems like a wise investment even if it ruins my life........you know you'd do it. At this point I'm resigned, so maybe everone could share their nazel horror stories....I'm not being sarcastic. that would make for some really interesting reading. Take care, y'all, matt

I understand your thinking, I did the same thing with my first air hammer. Three years and $8000 to rebuild it and it only had one major issue. If your able to do most of the work yourself and you have a good mechanical background it might work out ok. Just keep in mind most basket case hammers never run again and if it was a easy fix Wallace would do it.

Oh, come on, surely you have to start somewhere. I mean you were not just born with every giant cool metal smashing tool under-the-sun, right? and after all 8000 dollars over three years, with no interest is better than any terms I've ever gotten from a bank. thats like 225$ a month right? Take care, matt

Hey, thank y'all for the advise. The vfd link went along way to explaining how that option could work. I spoke to terry suthers(sp?) at postville blacksmith shop and he reccomended an electrical salvage place by the name of doug beat co., out of toledo, oh. Sure enough it seems I could get a 10 hp rotory converter for about 700$. Good deal. They also said they've run 2b's on a 10hp converter with no problems, does this mesh with all,y'alls experience? Kerry, ya I know I'm being cheap and unreasonable, but this shall be my project hammer and I expect to pay for it incrementally. Also Mr.Wallace has offered to buy back parts I don't end up using, and I'm sure other's would be interested as well. So I anticipate the setting up of this hammer to be partly subsidized. The thing about the electric is that after I move shop I hope to have three phase so I'd hate to have to incur this added expense for naught, as that I'm sure I would't get around to selling it. I, like many here I suspect, tend to horde anything moderatly mechanically useful. I fully understand this to be a big, long winded, expensive, project, but it also seems to be the only way I'd ever be able to afford a 2b. Most banks won't finance the a broke blacksmith's antiquated mechanical caprices, sadly. Take care, matt

How much would a vfd run? and how would that rectify the three phase issue? It is a fairly old motor(60's) but my understanding is that the shop that currently houses theses hammers spend around the order of 2000$ dollars rebuilding is motor about 2 years ago. Oh and I am worried about getting it and getting it set up, fear not.I'm really worried. I do that well, worrying. My other concerns I 'll probably mount to another post, though.

It looks as if I might be buying 2 2b's in about a week or so(one workingish, one more for parts. When it rains, it pours, right?) , and aside from my piles of anxiety about such a large puchase, there are many logisical and technical concerns as well. One of which is the three phase issue. My currant shop is hopefully temporary and I rent but a small part of a large building, thusly the cost and justification of having three phase installed are just about non-existent. BUT I had been told, that, as the motor powering the hammer is effectively powering a compressor I'd have to size the phase converter to something like double its intended output. This also would be a huge expense(I mean a 14 hp rotary phase converter I don't even know where to find) So all you older, wiser, smashers-of-bits how'd ya'll do it? I've heard about that valve modification to help the hammer not start under load, but I really, REALLY don't want to risk burning out the motor on this(though I suppose I will have two). Thanks for your time in advance. Matt

I dare say, tom bredlow fits into this category nicely. His work was flawless, It's just a cryin' shame he no longer practices the craft.

Zsartell,
I've been trawling the internet (with no luck) to find the cross section drawing of the Massey 'clear space' hammers. These, as you may know, were a further development of the 'with-slides' model described in the patent link from Frosty/ Cavala.
Basically the clear space also has a compressor cylinder and 'driven' cylinder but the valving is another 'tube' in between, with top and bottom ports to the driven cyl.
The valve is a type of spindle with spring loaded discs with what looks for all the world like cast iron trolley wheels. These are bolted onto a long rod which moves them up and down to change the air ways / function. I've always admired this system and thought about the potential on copying it.

Best answer would be; buy info booklet of JohnN of Massey forging...
AndrweOC

Whilst I believe everything everyone has said about these hammers, in terms beautiful forging capability, It's my understanding that the valving, mainly responsible for the aforementioned forging, is slightly more complicated than god. I suppose its in true english engineering tradition. I too, would like to recommend Mark Krause. I've bought his book( or rather pamphlet). It runs about 20 dollars and is very nicely illustrated. We hung out at the conference and I got to pick his brains on the subject of fabricated self contained hammers for several hours. One of the main things he stressed was about a 2:1 ratio for the Supply:Tup. Basically to get your snap, from your tup movement. With a proper valve arrangement you won't run into any problems with surplus air being produced, where as we all know what happens with too little air. As for the supply piston being physically wider than the tup/tup cylinder? I'd say that was principally applied to keep stroke length down and reduce required force from the motor/crank/wristpin assembly. But I would like to take a moment to say I'm no expert, but Mark is. He fixes self contained(s) for a living, so go ahead and give him a call if your really interested. By the by, I'd say the modified ball valve thing on a nazel style hammer is a little to sloppy to give good results, but then again I've never run that man's hammer, but I might be inclined to pay a machinist to make some roller valves(or one of us enterprising blacksmith's with machining capabilities...). Actually, Mark did mention that he is principally a machinist, why not just pay him to make you one? at that point you'd be halfway there. In any case best of luck, Matt

Thanks again for all of the advise. John, After reading your response I did in fact deepen my "ducks nest" by about an inch.I'll have to see if that helps, as that after doing that I when home and promptly passed into a coma-like state for about 14 hours. Good old strep throat to ring in spring with a bang. Everything you wrote makes a bunch of sense given my conditions and habits.I believe I'll try to source more intact coal.I do live right at the cusp of coal country(eastern pennsylvania ) But I got this coal from the most frequently recommended place on the local blacksmith's radar screen. Also at 212 dollars a ton its hard to beat. Mr. Wolf, I had already done that and like you said It does indeed help with the cleaning/ and fire management a bit. Thanks for all of your timely responses, Matt