Charlotte

Brianbrazealsmith, please correct me if I'm mistaken but it appears that all of the scrolls are actually the same curve drawn to different scales.
Would that happen to be the "golden ration curve"

Charlotte, you stated in your above post that you can weld with propylene and others. (did I read that correctly?) My understanding is that you cannot weld with propylene using a torch. (due to the high pressures needed as you mentioned) When using this gas, for cutting purposes, it is recommended to use a tip 2 sizes up from what you would use with acetylene. Or is the welding you are refering to only in a gas forge?

Actually I was talking about the "proprietary" Gas mixes. The trick they use is to put a lot of methyacetylene and Propadiene in the mix. This raises the temperature just enough, when combined larger tips to permit welding forehand horizontal. There are three factors involed here. Temperature, quantity of heat, hydrogen embrittlement.

I have extensive experience with MAPP in particuliar. Thin mild steel well fluxed for non-critical applications were ok.

I loved using it for silver solder, brazing, all kinds of copper work.

I keep a small cylinder of acetylene for the rare occasions when I really need to fusion weld something. The last item I used it for was decorative door hardware that broke for a friend of mine. It was one of those fancy "faux" colonial things. I would not have tried it with Mapp or with tig as the first is too much heat( quanity) and the other is too high temp and too much heat.

Normaly I cut with oxy/propane because I tend to do a cleaner job with it. The little extra O2 in preheat doesn't matter compared to what is use for cutting.

Ok here's the story. I worked for many years in the industrial gas biz as a Laboratory supervisor. What I'm about to tell you is the truth and nothing but the truth as I remember it.

Propylene has a higher working vapor presssure than propane, about 19 Psi in fact. Your gas guy may be prevented, for a number of commerical agreements and his specific license for gas filling from the DOT, from filling your container with propylene.

DOT Regulations controlling Pressurized gas filling and transportation are contained in 49 CFR. I am not current on the CFR because I'm ten years out of the business. However, I do know that the shift to current propane consumer valve, from CGA 510 was connected with a number of unfortunate incidents in which people boosted cylinders from industrial plants that contained compounds that were dangerously posionous when burned. As a result that and other regulations were also tightened.


Now to your Idea. Propane Propylene, Methyacetylene, and Propadiene in various mixture ratios are marketed as MAPP Gas, Blazer, Chemtane etc.

The is a lot of smoke and mirrors involed with these brand names, lawsuits, patents and copy rights. It all boils down to: they are essentially the same thing. They will weld mild steel horizontal forehand. They produce higher preheats than straight propane and are thus easier to start without producing the same over heating experienced with acetylene.

Without going in the chemistry involved, yes it is possible to raise a forge's temperature by changing to a different fuel gas. But keep in mind that it will probably involve changing to a different orifice size and tinkering with your pressures and volumes to get it running satisfactorily.

I've tried the experiment you are contemplating: At one time I had two gas forges and a number of crawfish burners going. I fueled these with propane range hydrocarbons that were scheduled for disposal. My conclusions were this;

1)Yes it does make a hotter fire.
2)If you are having trouble getting to welding heat for mild steel you need to look at your forge design and burner design.

Possible problem. What is your altitude? That does influence the temperature you can reach in an atmospheric gas forge.

A blower and a regenerative system will solve that problem.

Re-generative system is simply putting a stack on your forge that routes the dragons's breath over a pipe that feeds air into your burner.

I advise against going to a different fuel gas than Propane or Methane. It costs more for not much benefit.

I don't know what chemtane 2 is. I suspect it is one of the variations on Mapp gas or Blazer. Fuels like that will give a slightly higher heat at significantly greater expense. The idea is to give performance that is almost acetylene with out the limitation of withdraw rates you find with acetylene'.
The trick used is to mix unsaturated C3 hydrocarbons with propane to jack up the temp. They are good fuels but not the answer where quanity of heat is the issue.

Stick with propane and air for large heating. Look in Grainger for their propane air torches. Or as I suggested earlier check out Hybrid Burners.com

He produces some truely heroic burners that can be mounted for hand use.

Another source of burners is Ward Burners that produces Propane Air burners with heat out puts greater than anything commonly used in Smith work. Ward Burners produces compact burners for Raku kilns that can be used some what like Rose buds.

I'm trying to save you money and time. I know welding gas from twenty years in Industrial Gases. I was a member of ABANA before I went to work in the industry.

I'd like to remind everyone that you are not selling the steak. You are sellling the Sizzle.

I dislike Donald Trump and much that he stands for but one thing you learn from his television program is that presentation is everything in retail marketing.

Don't forget pipe for compressed air. Big pipe, Big comprssor. Air tools of all sorts solve problems that electrical tools only wish they could.

It depends on your definition of Easy.

I heat some steel, then I hammer it, then I grind it, its a sword. The details are in HOW. How to selet the steel, how to apply the hammer, how to use the grinder.

That knowing how, comes from experience, the hammering itself does not change, nor does holding a piece of steel against the grinder.

Don't mean to inject myself inappropriately in a discussion that has endless facination for me, in an area of smith work I have no intention of starting in, but: I would like to note that the sword smith was not, until the 20th century, ever a lone craftsman.
Today, machinery has replaced much of the apprentices work but still handling 36" or so of soft Iron is very tricky and some what dangerous if not well thought out.

You do great work and your customer has a good eye also. It must be pleaseant having a customer that understands what he is asking for.
Congratulations of finishing a lovely piece.

Very nice look, and a pretty Damascus

How much weight can these hold. It seems like copper grounding wire wouldn't really hold a hanging plant?

The point of cold working heavy duty copper grounding wire, (4 gauge),
is to stiffen and make it possible for it to support a hanging plant.

The S curve become much stronger and able to resist the weight of the plant and reasonable wind forces.

A litte experiment would demonstrate it for you. I have two hanging on my front porch at the moment but unfortunately I don't have a digital camera to show you.

Victor used to produce something like that for industrial use. I would check with Hybridburners.com He produces a very stable burner that in some sizes can be adapted to massive hand held heating jobs with out additional oxygen.
Personally, while I have immense respect for Albert Paley the the Artist, I am less in awe of Albert Paley the technician. There are, strickly my opinion based on vid that he himself chose to show at a public lecture, often other more economical and perhaps safer techniques for working than he uses.

Sometimes, very creative artists value working creatively and freely over economy.

Propane/Pressurized Air torches, are and economical alternative to Propane/Oxygen. Propane/Oxygen is, in my opinion, too expensive to use for anything but critical point heating. Big Rose buds and propane Gulp oxygen at wonderful rates.

I have in the past used my shop air, with dry filters, to power propane air torch tips.

Safety Warning: Do not under any circumstances run oxygen through a line that has had shop air run through it. One drop of oil vapor can cause a terrible explosion. (speaks from 20 years experience with pressurized oxygen.)

BTW what I did was not good for finishing.

A number of the wood worker suppliers have products for stabilizing wood for carving green wood. The material is PEG polyethylene glycol. Absorbs and replaces water. When the water leaves the Peg stands in for the water in the cell structure.

I have stabilized anvil stumps by soaking green wood in winter/summer antifreeze for a year. Just out of curiosity I drilled the center of one four years later and the waste still felt moist. ( Inside a super heavy duty plastic bag inside of a black garbage can in the summer fall winter spring summer fall.)

What is that supposed to mean?
...

I mean that it is one of those tips that will save, time, money, effort and aggravation for the rest of one's career. It is the kind of tip that is so valuable that masters often take it for granted and forget mention.

I think of my self as an apprentice smith, and while parts of your reasoning have occured to me in the past, I simply had not put all the pieces together until you brought it to my attenion. Building jigs that produce touching C scrolls of particular sizes is simply not something that I had put into practice.

So Thank YOU brianbrazealblacksmith! That is what I mean.

Charlotte

I make most of my scrolling jigs where they will form a C-scroll that will touch without interfering with the jig when you form the second half. They are also made for standard size cuts [12",18",24",36",48"...] so I don't have alot of scrap from cutting up 20' bars. You can always make S-scrolls with any jig, but the C-scroll that touches gives you alot more design options and structure.

Now that is a real tip for the apprentice smith. Thanks

Very nice piece. I like the patination, balance and execution. A very worth submission

Very nice knife!

Just for your information. Steel cylinders with post world war 2 first retest dates are made from Chrome molly steel. The permitted alloy and heat treal in defined in 49 CFR ( DOT regs). Steel cylinder and Aluminum Cylinders are regulated by DOT.

The steel if very tough and resistant to crack propagation. I had very poor sucess forge welding the material but I only tried three times. Perhaps properly prepared, it could be can welded in a good dedicated gas forge.

The bottoms make great bowl formers and when stuck open end down in the floor excellent bases for for small anvils and equipment.

With carefull triming and a litte machining, heat treated, the tops can be wonderfull bells.

if you don't use very much the best deal is to buy small tanks.

If OA is a daily thing then renting will be cheaper in the long run.

If you use OA mostly for cutting then mapp, blazer etc is better for most use.

If you need to gas fusion weld then Oxygen acetylene is required. Yes other gases can weld but only Acetylene does it easily under a varieiy of conditions

Again, if just occasionaly then buy rent if you refill several times a year.
I worked for one of the majors in the industry for 20 something years

I don't even manage to dream shops that nice to work in. :)

I vote it very nice and will have to make one for my self.
I know she will be very delighted with it.!

I always thought that the origonals were cold worked with small punches.
I know that at one time thimbles were made of leather.

These days I figure they a deep drawn and stamped. Tell the truth I really don't know.

File Stitching??

twisted coppe bracelets go good also... and cloak pins . you square up the copper and twist and scroll comes out pretty... have fun

I've though several times about making some twisted bronze bracelets out of atlas metals bronze. That would be a more work but would also be a xxxx of a lot more interesting. I think you just motivated me to buy some bronze.

Sorry, I don't have a picture of one but it is easy enough to think about.

An S hook that is formed by two scrolls one to the right and the other to the left.

Just a big S hook with the spaces top and bottom filled with an extra turn of scroll.

I just hammer the copper flat on the anvil until it is work hardened enough to hold the shape. Different Hammers yield different effects.

It gives practice at eye balling scrolls, burns no propane or coal, and lets you think about your hammer technique. Kind o like doodling while waiting for dinner. (Of course since I'm the cook, bottle washer, etc. I do it while waiting for the washer to shut off.)

Sold a pair today for $16. If I had 15 min in them I was being careful. Point of fact the post is in part in fun and in part, about teaching your self to scroll and hammer. I make them at odd times and never seem to have any stock.

I went to several demos where the only things that sold were blacksmith puzzles and S hook hangers. Copper sells better than Iron.