SomeGuy

I have a HF welder but that's because I'm too broke for anything better. I agree with what others say, buy a quality welder if you can afford it, ot have time to save up for a good one.. You might think about longevity brand welders. They have a 200 amp Mig and Stick duel process welder for about $700 and that seems like a great deal to me. It also has a 60% duty cycle.

23 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith.c said:

You do not gain that much more insolating value for the smaller interior size.  1" of blanket and about 1/2" of Kast-0-Lite and a coat of infrared reflective product (Plistix or Metrikote) will provide a long lasting, efficient forge.  If you use a 20# Propane tank with 1" of blanket and 1/2" of Kast-0-Lite you will have a 7 1/2" chamber.  You can then block up the openings as needed. 

I run my Ribbon Burner forge with about 1/2# of pressure at the regulator.  Before, with a venture burner I ran from 5 to 7# pressure.

Wayne, you have a ribbon burner. Excellent. I wanted to ask about those. I know theese type burners are said to heat the forge more evenly, but what about fuel consumption? How much fuel does your forge use?

Also, how big are your forge openings? How small can I make them if I use a ribbon burner?

10 hours ago, Andy98 said:

No.

A high-volume flow at low pressure can move as much gas as a low-volume flow at high pressure. Think of a slow moving wide&deep river vs a fast moving narrow&shallow river.

Ultimately, a burner is simply releasing the energy stored in the propane (by burning the fuel). So if you want 60k BTUs of energy, you will consume 60k BTUs of fuel (plus some extra due to inefficiencies) whether you deliver that quickly through a thin tube, or slowly through a fat tube.

I'm thinking (and would love to be further educated on the topic) that basically all the burners are equally efficient (e.g. no burner is producing a lot of unburned or incompletely burned propane). The forge itself might be inefficient (some burning might take place outside the forge, it might be poorly insulated and not retain the heat, etc...)

Andy, The theory concerning BTU output seems logical. However, it also seems that if we are using more BTU's than is necessary then we are wasting fuel.

This is exactly the question I'm searching answers for. If we have a lot of energy (dragons breath) escaping from the forge openings then that's wasted energy and wasted fuel. I know a forge must breath properly, but I'm looking to make it as efficient as possible. If that means finding a burner that I can use at lower BTU outputs then that's what I want. But I'm not sure what is needed to accomplish this goal though. I want to limit the amount of energy that is wasted as it escapes out if the forge openings. This is my whole search in a nutshell.

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Nothing to apologize for, we talk for a while on subjects to get a good idea of what the other guy means and I'm not as articulate as I used to be. Not understanding me is a pretty normal state for folk. There are other folk following along too, it's time well spent.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thanks again.

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

 

Sorry Frosty, I guess that was a poor choice of words on my part, and I misunderstood what you were saying too.

Anyway, that forge is over $800 and i cant afford it. Thanks for your time

Frosty, I suspected that there might be some competing innuendo in this thread. That's ok. I just thought I might pick your brains for a bit.  Look at this image, do you see the tapered pipe in the plumbing between the burner and forge? Does this serve a useful purpose or it is cosmetic only? Does it serve to create a vortex in the gas air mixture? Can you explain why this forge is plumbed this way? Or can you show me something similar so I can understand this concept better?

I just love this forge. I love the design. I want to build my own, only use ceramic wool or ceramic insolation board, instead of whatever they are using for insulation. I'm trying to understand the burners design better though.

Thank you iron dwarf, will do.

Did I misunderstand the "swirling" thing? Were you referring to the flame inside the forge swirling, or were you referring to a vortex inside the gas and air mixing chamber? Or both? I'm confused. I don't have your book, but if you wouldn't mind sharing some schematics or pictures it would be appreciated. Thank you.

Ok, I'm going to stop using the quote feature. I hate that messy quote merge thing.

Anyway, Mikey, after reading your first few posts in this thread topic, this sounds all Greek to me. I am very interested in what you say about the swirling action of the gas and air mixture. That's why I posted that link with the expensive farriers forge, because it seemed to have some special plumbing after the burner. You words reminded me of that and so i posted it hoping to get an opinion on the burner design. I'm just looking for a good design.  Do you have an schematic or picture of a properly built burner that I can see? I would like to see these ideas you are referring to.

33 minutes ago, Frosty said:

It's all a balance, combustion gasses being HOT take up a lot more space so what you can shoot into a forge through a 3/4" dia orifice is going to want a 2" dia exhaust port or it'll make detrimental back pressure. This is exactly why a lot of guys have doors on their forges they can adjust, sliding soft bricks are popular and work well but the high temp soft brick is more expensive.

Currently I've been experimenting with making my own partitions and baffles rather than destroying soft fire brick. What's available to us are 2,200f soft brick and our forges get a LOT hotter than that so soft brick only lasts a couple firings before it starts breaking up. We'd have to special order 2,600f. soft brick so we're trying other things.

Check out what Mikey has been saying about building forges, especially what he has to say about baffles and how they work.

Frosty The Lucky.

Well at least that 2" exhaust port gives a little better idea of what I might expect. Thanks. I'll check out Mickeys posts, as you suggested.

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 4:47 AM, Mikey98118 said:

So, going on about funnel shape fittings on the end of linear burners, and its effects:

Swirl isn't the only advantage that they can provide. If an impeller blade is attached at the large end of a funnel or pipe reducer at the burner's year end, a stronger vortex can be produced at the fitting's small end. The  impeller blade doesn't even need to move to get the effect, although a weak fan motor will work wonders.

It is a given that a fluid running through a round restriction will form a vortex, but usually so weak a one as to make no practical difference, so that the term swirl or  is more appropriate.

But, for every minor increase in power added to a vortex its swirl and other benefits are greatly magnified. What other benefits? Increase flow of incoming air simultaneously with a large drop in air pressure in that flow; a magic combination that can be found in no other way. And with that we can move on to jet-ejector burners and their air openings.

To begin with jet-ejectors induct more air into a naturally aspirated burner than can be found from a linear style with a rear funnel, unless it is equipped with a fan, and then it is no longer naturally aspirated, even if it is an impeller blade fan.

The way a jet-ejector's multiple air openings create swirl is from twisting into a small part of a turn, as air travels into the burner, just ahead of its mixing tube area; that my be found as part of a single tube shape (Mikey burner), or within a larger area built up in part from a reducer fitting and a larger diameter tube section (Hybrid burner). It can be made up as  two opening on a pipe fitting ("T" buner), or even from a single opening (Modified Side-arm burner); all are examples of jet-ejectors.

One fact of life we have to address is DRAG, which is the arch enemy of mixture flow. Any opening through which air flows creates drag as it passes by the air opening's edges, by creating eddy currents. Curved edges create more eddy currents then straight edges; the stronger the curve the greater the eddy currents. Can you think of anything worse for creating drag than lots of little holes? Thus the advantage of just two larger holes in a "T" burner is far superior, and even the offside single hole of a Modified Side-arm burner trump them; this is despite the fact that both of the latter two burners have threaded openings that air must pass through, which threaded side holes don't! Do we begin to appreciate how powerful eddy currents are at creating drag?

Moving in the opposite direction, Rex Price, while still studying burner design with me, sent his version of what he thought he had learned of my ideas; his burner used slots for air openings, instead of my rows of holes, thus combining straight with curved edges; the improvement was remarkable. So I came back with rectangular air openings to remove all curves from their edges, and beveled forward and rear edges for good measure. Such a boost in performance was gained that a radical new step stye flame nozzle became possible.   

 

   Ok Mickey, this is all Greek to me. I am very interested in what you say about the swirling action of the gas and air mixture. That's why I posted that link with the expensive farriers forge, because it seemed to have some special plumbing after the burner. You words reminded me of that and so i posted it hoping to get an opinion on the burner design. I'm just looking for a good design.  Do you have an schematic or picture of a properly built burner that I can see? I would like to see these ideas you are referring to.

Quote

 

 

2 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I don't know of anybody using hydrogen for a forge fuel, a forge needs a much larger quantity of fuel than a torch. Currently gas forges are "Reverberatory" furnaces. This means the flame heats the interior of the forge and the radiated heat from the forge liner is what heats the work. Large industrial forge furnaces are cycling a LOT of material and time is money so their furnaces are lined with heavier refractories for the thermal "mass" it can transfer more BTUs faster without losing so much heat the next work takes longer to come to the desired temperature. Of course anything the flame touches will be heated by the flame but that isn't the main manner of how a gas forge heats.

This isn't much of a factor for most small scale blacksmiths so we operate by a different philosophy. An insulated forge liner with a relatively thin hard flame face heats up to a higher absolute temperature in minutes and requires much less fuel. However if you're working a lot of pieces you might notice piece #3 or 4 taking longer to heat than #1&2, this is because the first pieces took the heat.

Not having a LOT of dragon's breath is a good thing unless you're heating your garage too. Dragon's breath is a factor of gas forge operation just like smoke is for a coal forge. It isn't a type of forge it's just a thing that is.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thanks for clearing that up. I kind'a began to understand that dragons breath referred to "flames and heat" instead of an actual forge. I began to understand this as a read another topic on this website not long after I posted my last comment. I'm now understanding that small and well insulated is better, and that small forge openings are better, but I'm not sure how small I can make those openings and still maintain safety. If I use a ribbon burner will this mean I can make smaller openings in my forge without worrying about some kind of safety hazard? I guess I just need to know what kind of burner will be efficient, (if there is a burner that's a cut above the rest), and I need to know how small I can make my forge openings.

Yup, you're correct frosty. I'm in Ohio USA

10 minutes ago, Frosty said:

 

Someguy out there somewhere: I spend a lot of time trying to make my forges versatile and it's always a dice shoot. Making small burners for small spaces is a good idea. However if you're mostly doing jewelry you will save time and fuel by using a fuel air torch rather than a small furnace/forge. A jewelers oxy, hydrogen torch is excellent for small work and you can generate your own gas with an electric oxy, hydrogen generator.

About most home made forge burners blowing excessive flame out the openings you're right it's wasted fuel. There is one and only one reason a LITTLE dragon's breath is a good thing, it shows there is NO unburnt oxygen IN the forge to generate scale on your steel/iron.

Balancing the burner size to the furnace volume is important but getting a home build's nozzle velocity down is another story. Recently guys have been talking about and building "ribbon" burners which is a final nozzle into the forge made up of a LOT of smaller openings. This does a couple things, it spreads the flame evenly in the furnace and more importantly a well built ribbon has a nozzle velocity JUST above the rate of propagation of the gas air flame so it can't back fire. (burn back up the nozzles into the plenum)

This is a popular burner design with glass blowers but can be over done easily. Blacksmiths are sort of known for getting carried away.

About your quest for "THE most efficient gas burner". Join the club, every furnace, torch, etc. manufacturer on Earth is actively working on improvements in their labs every single work day. They have staffs and labs doing it.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thanks Frosty. I am considering a ribbon burner. I'll check out that  little dragons breath forge too.

I'm not into jewelry, so a torch wont work for my forging needs, although I have an oxy/propane torch for cutting thick steel and heating as well. I did see the hydrogen torch though, on youtube, and I wondered if a hydrogen burner would heat a forge. If it would it might be a good fuel  source. However I could blow myself up too because I have no idea about hydrogen gas. Any idea if its possible to use hydrogen to heat a forge? You could generate your own hydrogen with a generator and electricity, I know that much

 

Yes, that's a commercially manufactured propane burner, not only are they more efficient they're much less susceptible to back pressure or breezes. They cost plenty, efficiency costs more up front but it will pay for itself in fuel use and lost time eventually. YOu may be able to build a burner as efficient but it'll probably be after building many many burners.

What shape forge you need depends on what YOU want to use it for. It's common for new guys to build forges WAY larger than they need try to avoid that. The rule of thumb that works pretty well is: one well tuned, 3/4" dia. burner for every 300-350 cubic inches of forge chamber. Commercially manufactured burners will heat a little more volume.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thank you for the reply. I use to think I needed a huge forge, you are correct. However after I built a small forge I saw how much propane they used, and that's when I decided I needed something efficient. I could build 2 forges, a small one and medium sized one, I guess. I was wondering if the design in the link I posted might be good. I want to forge odd shaped things such as rings for example. I'll need something more than just a small blade forge, I need to build it myself too. I would love to talk with someone who has a really good burner design that he would share with me. I also would love to know how small I can safely make the forge openings. I believe much fuel is wasted as the heat rushes out the from of the forge. I know there is a safety concern here but I saw a good thread written by a gentlemen on this forum which seemed to suggest that small openings are better because you don't need to use as much heat that way. I would have asked him questions but I don't think he posts here anymore.

 

I looked at the hype, and failed to find any solid FACTS behind it; they are actually bragging that they have internal metal surfaces showing? One of of the guys on here already measured temperatures in my old forge design that would melt stainless steel, if it was to be used that way. Furthermore, the photos show an orange interior; not high yellow, let alone white. I would like to see a match between this forge and Ron Riel's old Mini forge for efficiency, or half the knife maker forges out there for that matter.

Maybe it actually is a good forge, and they just screwed up by trying an empty headed sales pitch, in stead of laying out a sound set of detailed facts, but I wouldn't spend good money based on the BS I saw. Also, if someone is going to pay a lot of money for a commercial forge, we wouldn't they just buy a proven brand like Chile Forge? If they are going to bet on a dark horse, why not start with one of the forges offered on eBay and spend a small fraction of what regular commercial forge makers ask to buy and upgrade it?

I'm not saying these guys are all that is evil. I'm just asking "where's the beef"?

Amen brother, that's what I'm saying. Where's the beef? I want to build a really efficient forge. Not to have the greatest forge around, but because the cost of propane is a big concern of mine. I need super efficiency. A small blade forge will be ok for some things, but I need a more versatile forge as well. I'm looking for a good design to mimic.

Did I accidentally merge our replies? Or is that a default thing that happens? If it was my fault, I'm sorry.

I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't see any replies to the topic and I thought I would add one. There really isn't much more to it than that. I was interested in his offer until I saw he was England. I just thought I would leave a reply and thank him anyway. AS far as leaving my location goes, I don't really trust the internet anyway, so maybe i'll just leave that out. I hope you understand.

9 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

5 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith.c said:

9 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

 

.

5 hours ago, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith.c said:

Thank you. I'm sorry about muti quote stuff. I am having trouble understanding this website. I accidentally added muti quotes but cant figure out how to remove them. I also already replied to you once, but I don't see my response below, so something must have gone wrong. anyway, I'll retype it again.

About the link you provided, I have seen that webpage before and found it useful, and I'm considering a ribbon burner. Ultimately its about fuel efficiency for me. Are ribbon burners much more efficient in conserving fuel?

I'm also wondering about forge opening size. I know that many people say that its good to have proper ventilation and that forge openings must not be too small for that reason. However I see this topic discussed here on IforgeIron, and this gentlemen seems to say the opposite. I'm in agreement with Grant Sarver that the only efficiency I'm concerned with is fuel cost. What is your opinion of his advice given in the topic below? (see link below) I would ask him directly but its an old topic and I'm not sure he is on this website any longer.

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/13239-gas-forge-quotefficiencyquot/?page=1

 

I need a good forge for general blacksmithing. I see so many forges and burners, and I need a good design. I need something that is super efficient. Please, if you don't mind, show me your forge and burner, and tell me how much gas it uses on average, Thank you

Hi. I m new to the forum. I would like to ask a question if I may.  What is the most efficient burner I can use in a medium sized forge? I'm looking to use the least amount of  fuel as possible. Fuel conservation is a top priority for me.

This forge (see link below) boasts of being the among the most efficient but it has a hefty price tag, and I'm a DIY guy anyway, I prefer to build my own. I do like the design of this forge though, and if its as good as they say it is, then maybe I can build my own version of it. What kind of burner is this? It has a tapered gas line running between the burner and forge. Is this for mixing the gas and air?  

http://www.hypona.com/forgeeng.html

sorry, I'm in a different country. Thanks anyway