Grem

Hey I just recently moved to Tucson in Arizona, though I've been a member here for a while, I figured I would start once again with a post here to see if there might be anyone near me who also does smithing.

Yeah the first two are during night. And yes I can see the colors of the metals very well at night haha.

I've gotten used to it, but I'm still just practicing working the metals.

Well I live in Vegas which is incidentally not far from a big Coal mine, so I can get coal for the same price as Charcoal here.

I've been told Coal was better because it traps radiant heat a lot better which yields a more thorough heating of the metal, we well as burning longer than charcoal. It's actually harder for me to get Charcoal here because I live in a treeless desert.

I was just taken by how hot I got it without really trying. 

Today I get to build my foundry! Waste oil for the win baby.

Oh indeed, as cheap as it was, I just wanted to see what it was like without it, attempting a forge weld without a flux to gain an appreciation for having it.

I did indeed, and I've avoided that happening a second time.

Part of the issue I think I didn't have borax the first run through so the scale build up was so think even after brushing it, It never actually looked that hot. I could tell it was just off the radiant heat alone, but the color itself never really got past a bright red. Even when the steel was molten which was odd to me.

However the second run with it using the borax, I was able to clean the steel up quite nicely and see the various color changes it goes through while heating up.

I was able to do a sloppy, yet successful forge weld.

Well I wasn't thinking it wouldn't get hot, I knew charcoal burns hot enough to melt Iron. I just didn't realize I was blasting enough air to make it get that hot.

I mean it's not like I'm running a blast furnace filled to the brim with charcoal. 

I wasn't expecting -THAT- heat. Consequence to learning what it's capable of haha. Still though I have plenty of fun with it.

So I was playing with Titanium and some Carbon Steels.

Underestimated how hot I could get the charcoal and melted the metals haha.

Still though it was fun. My set up isn't pretty, but for someone with no money and using what I could find, I don't think it's too shabby.

Thoughts?

I just set up my rig in Las Vegas, NV. If there is anyone close by I would love to meet up and talk shop.

McMaster has 1095 in flats, as well as the standards O1, W1, A2, 52100, etc. Look closer on the site. I have one of the paper catalogs, and they are listed in there. Also check the machine shop suppliers such as MSC they also have tool steels, and run specials from time to time.

yeah actually I've found quite a bit on that place. Tools I've been looking for and such it's been a great help.

The place Gundoc showed me was actually really nice, it doesn't have a really high carbon content like 1090 but it's got an incredible range of metals and supplies.

Of course, but to save myself a lot of time, I'm just going to buy the metal pre-graded. Also considering the fact that I don't have a great deal of space to comfortably build a bloomery or a Tatara in order to make the steel. But the idea being if I were to get my hands on the metals I want with the hardness/toughness I'm looking for already set, just use the lamination techniques they did and still do. If it works then I should make something quite satisfying to me, if I mess it up? Well then I will just fold it all into a Damascus  and make something less complicated haha.

Okay so I've been hunting around for some metal suppliers that would deal in specific metal alloys. I have plenty of scrap yards near by but you can't really gauge the quality of the metal and what it contains.

 

My idea is to try and work with a multi layered blade using a soft steel for the core, and for example using a Tungsten/steel alloy for a blade edge. I've contacted some of the steel suppliers in vegas, a few have said they only deal in carbon steels and SOME titanium alloys, others have said they only deal in bulk steels.

Well as I said in the above my idea was to work with a blade. I did say blade. I did not specify type of blade. But the topic of the post was not about making the blade, the topic was looking for a dealer of specific metal alloys. Explaining my idea was to give the more knowledgeable people such as yourself and The doctor there a more specific idea of my intentions so that you would understand I was looking for specific metals for specific purposes, but not in large amounts.

Whether it's layers of lamination the concept is the same. Looking for differently graded metal alloys to do the job I intend them to do.

Sarcasm is a personal trade as well, as I'm sure you noticed. I mean no disrespect and I do appreciate the answer, but this topic was about finding metal, not about making a knife. I just find answers are much more easily reached with details as opposed to general sentences thrown at a crown expecting a bite.

How much Damascus have you made?  The reason I ask is some alloys will not weld, or will resist welding.  Alloys with tungsten is one of them as the tungsten is added to give the steel a "red" hardness. 

I'm actually not talking about Damascus, I was referring to the Japanese laminating method, as opposed to forge welding everything into a single bar.

Also I have found many of the large supppliers will sell to me, but  many wont sell to people that waste their time. go in and tell them the alloy you want, and pay and move along. If you come in wanting a metalurgical education, they wont take any time for anything except to show you the door.  Are you going to the correct places?

 

for example we have a knife making sections yet you posted this request for information in the Nonferrous section.    If you paid as much attention when you called the supppliers, they may actually not have had anything to sell you.  I will rellocate it since it seems lost in this section.

 

You asked about a "Tungsten/steel alloy"   but didnt state which one.   Many supply houses have no clue, they just sell the stuff.  Also why do you feel that is a good alloy to use, and ou forgot to statee what type of blade.  Most blade quality steels are made in small amounts because of the small market for them.  Most of the time buying locally is not going to work.  But we covered that already also.   Good luck finding your suppliers.  It really isnt too hard, if you can get more specific as to what you want.

 

  Just passing along information, use it as you will.

Actually I posted it in the non-ferrous metal section because I was inquiring if anyone might know of a supplier of more than just Steels and Ferrous metals. As I recall from an earlier post of mine there were a couple individuals that are stationed not far from me. I never once mentioned it was for a knife, sword, axe or any particular tool. I was just looking for a metal supplier. But I thank you for the sarcasm.

I was just giving examples, use it as you will.

McMaster Carr sells small quantities of various tool steels.

What specific alloys are you looking for?

This is exactly what I was hoping to find and I thank you, sir. I'm just going to start with scrap metal to get into the flow of doing this, but I wanted to have a source of grade specific metals. This was actually a lot more helpful than I was expecting.

Okay so I've been hunting around for some metal suppliers that would deal in specific metal alloys. I have plenty of scrap yards near by but you can't really gauge the quality of the metal and what it contains.

My idea is to try and work with a multi layered blade using a soft steel for the core, and for example using a Tungsten/steel alloy for a blade edge. I've contacted some of the steel suppliers in vegas, a few have said they only deal in carbon steels and SOME titanium alloys, others have said they only deal in bulk steels.

My local library is worthless, as far as obscure subjects go, such as blacksmithing. I just use a combination of E-books and Amazon. Generally I'll get the E-book because if they aren't free most of them are stupid cheap (About the cost of checking books out for a month). If I feel ike they're worth buying, I'll spend the $30 on a hard copy of the book for reference and on the go reading.

Well that's why we have the wonderful powers of the internet. I can preview just about any book and find it's worth. Sucks being poor but you do what you can right?

In other news, I'm picking up the materials to build my forge on Tuesday. Estimated cost is around $50 for everything, I'm excited to get this train moving.

Yeah I found it on Amazon for $25 going to order myself a copy on payday. It seemed like it was two just because of the title, but I took a sneak peek in it. I'm finishing up another book and I should be done by the time I get this one considering it's still 4 days to payday :/ I hate being broke. The good news though, I did blueprint up myself a clay forge, estimated cost about $60.

Ah very good, I will find these books. I appreciate it greatly.

That's what I thought, but nothing is ever as easy as it appears, it's nice having a website full of experience.

Okay so here's a question, I'm watching the documentary on Making of the Katana, I've watched this at least a dozen times by now. When the bladesmith is putting the pieces of the iron into the fire to forge weld them together, it looks like he's putting it on an iron plate. Wouldn't that mess with the quality of the sword being made? It looks like he just folds the sword metal with whatever metal that was.

Does anyone do this themselves? Do you just pre-make a handle out of the metal you're going to use?

Go to Aardvark pottery supplies down on Steptoe. It is across Boulder Highway off Tropicana. They should have kiln supplies that will work. Wood fire clay bodies are rated at cone 14+ , and the kilns also need to be protected from heat. If you are in the North end of the valley you could talk to Amy Kline at Pottery West on Pioneer off Lone Mountain road. She has just about every type of firing system at her facility, and has done a bit with fire clays.

That's a lot of help I'll check them out for sure.

You probably won't be easily able to locate any of the other "types" of ASTM portland like Type III, Type IV or Type V as they are "specialty" portland's used primarily in the concrete industry. Type III IIRC is "high early" and develops strength faster than "standard" portlands do, often used for precast work. Type IV is slow hydrate and takes longer to reach full cure but is "cooler" and doesn't develop as high a temp while hydrating. Used for massive concrete pours like dams. Type V is for high alkali conditions if I remember my structures class.

 

Adding an "a" to the type number indicates an air entraining mix for freeze thaw cycles. IE Type Ia, type IIa etc.

 

 

What you might be thinking of is sometimes referred to as "masons mix" or "masonry cement". That's where they mix portland and lime together and bag it so the mason doesn't have to be bothered with both. I ave no idea if the added lime will mess with the mix or not, but I'd just avoid it and use the plain portland myself.

 

I'm curious what "recipe" you are going to use. I've seen a bunch of different mixes and suggestions and an always on the look for others to file away for later reference and use.

You know what's strange home depot carries Type III/V. That seems to be the most common out here, but I'm sure I'll find I/II. I'm going off the recipe from backyardmetalcasting.com.

Did you call a concrete company? Every one I've called not only carries fire clay but are happy to answer questions. They probably aren't going to be able to supply you with a recipe for a forge refractory but fire places, fire pits, BBQs, etc. no problem. Virtually every town in the US has a market for fire clay so somebody there carries it.

 

Are you building a solid fuel or propane forge? If you're building a propane forge NO cement! If it's a solid fuel forge forget the insulation (perlite) it's not much use. Or are you building a closed furnace?

 

All these things make a difference. More info will get you much better answers. One more tip is let your fingers do the walking in the Yellow Pages. The internet has some severe limitations where searching out things is concerned. Talking to people on the phone is far faster; even if they don't know or carry what you're looking for, they'll know who does, or know someone who knows someone knows who does.

 

I love the web but it's limited, as you've found on this quest.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

As for the forge, I'm going with Charcoal/Solid fuel. There's a simple romance in it, and that's the whole reason I wanted to get into this. The Foundry however I'm looking at waste oil. I've actually got a few of the things here, like an air compressor hell I wouldn't be surprised if I had an atomizer back there too.

Yeah I'm good on the clay, another question though, does it matter what type of cement I get?

The recipe shows Type I/II but doesn't specifically say it HAS to be that. 

I've *boiled* a terra cotta flowerpot in a coal forge before---most amusing

That is amusing haha. Well done.

I found clay! I called a guy that installs walls, evidently his business was listed as a supply store instead of a contractor but he game me the number for someone that supplies clay out here but for some reason isn't popping up on google. Problem solved.