cal-k

"I'm testing a knife, the whole knife, made the way I make knives."

Ah, fair enough! Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

"I'm not making a test knife - I'm making a knife that will be tested"
I understood that you weren't actually going to take the test, but you are going to test it yourself (as the quote says).
That means it will very likely be damaged, perhaps to the point of making it 'useless'.
Personally, I wouldn't spend that much time and effort on a knife that I know is going to be destructively tested, especially since I know nobody else needs to look at the blade. If it's purely for testing forging and heat treatment skills, I'd only go to 400grit, and slab handles, anything else seems to be wasted effort.

I guess I'm trying to say: If you know you can make a great looking blade, why don't you save the extra time and effort spent on the test knife for another Knife that won't be tested?
I'd be interested in the long version, but only if you don't mind!
Thanks,

First of all, a big thanks for putting this up. Your work seems to be at about my level, so this knife is truly inspirational.

Second,its nice to see your jigs, work progress, and attention to detail; gave me many new ideas to try.

Finally, the JS test is destructive...so why would you put this much work into something that will be 'destroyed'? It would make more sense to make a blade that passes the test with just a basic handle, and not as high a finish. Just read an article off of the ABS website about the JS test, a quote:
"The applicant’s test knife. No special handle or finish is required. This is a test of
performance, and the test knife will ultimately be destroyed during the testing process."
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Testing/JS%20Test%20FINAL%204-24-2010.pdf

You put so much work into getting the fit and finish right, but it can't be used as one of the 5 blades for the Show Judging Panel, because of the rough surface on the spine.
"The by-word here is CLEAN! By that, I mean all of the lines should flow properly, blades should be straight, and your finishes should be as impeccable as you can make them. "
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=pages&id=172

Also wonder why you chose a pinned blind tang. It obviously fits the style of handle, no question there; but if this blade undergoes the bend test I would be concerned about it. From a pdf Ed Caffrey wrote:
"Remember that you may use either a full or hidden tang blade for the
JS test, but for safety sake, I recommend forging a full tang unless you feel supremely confident that you can make a hidden tang that will pass the bend test."
"The test blade is not required to be a fully finished piece, and therefore guard and bolster are not necessary. A
couple of tips that will help with the bending test are...:
1. Choose some type of micarta or phenolic for the handle slabs. Both of these materials are very tough, and will lend support to the tang area during the bending phase of the test.
2. DO NOT use large handle bolts that force you to drill large holes in the tang! This will only serve to weaken the tang, and could cost you dearly during the test. I suggest holding the handle material in place with epoxy, and at the maximum, a couple of 1/8" pins. Maybe even just a couple of 1/8" brass pins that are piened to hold the handles."
http://www.knifenetwork.com/workshop/tut_smithtest_caffrey.shtml
(I realize its about a knife out of 5160, but given he's an MS, I'd apply this advice to every knife...)

I think your blade is great, I wish I had the time and patience to pay that much attention to detail, and would love to own it, this is just 'Food for Thought...'

(Oh and a quick way to re-size the rod: Just a steel plate with the correct size hole drilled in it, hammer the pin through, the sharp edges of the hole should scrape off the excess diameter)

Very nice combination of pitted blades and wrapped handles. Love the look, and the blade design meshes perfectly with it. Definitely gonna give this a shot myself.

Brilliant brainwave on the grips there, look very technical.

Hmm nice blade, but I'd loose the ring too; the colour and shape don't fit. (IMHO) Maybe replace it with a non-round loop in black. Deeply etched trapezoid?

Nice work with the pewter on the third. Like how it's run down into the handle, bit like water frozen in place.
Did you use nails/screw/etc to anchor the pewter?

Get a couple really cheap folders, with different mechanisms. Take them apart and study the lock, should give you a real good idea of what is needed to make each type. Most will take a fair bit of fiddling, filing, fitting, and time to get it just right.

As far as I know you may have to bring it in from the states. I have sometimes even found it can be cheaper to bring in some steels from the US rather than buying local especially with the current exchange rates. Where did you find the 1080 in Ontario? What kind of section?

emailed Resource Metals, they said they could get 1080 no problem...
this is the fella i mailed: Jason Bell <jason@resourcemetals.ca>

hmm, being a student, price is usually an issue, but thanks anyways.
If i recall properly, bandsaw blades from sawmill are likely L6, right? could get my hands on that...

thanks

hello folks, been a while since i've posted here.

I'm looking to start working with damascus, have made a piece using 5160 and mild, but when I etched there wasn't much difference.
so, i started looking round IFI for what to use, came up with a combo of 1080 and 15n20. lotta people saying its good steel for knives, fairly easily forged, and has a very obvious pattern.
I'm in flamborough, part of Hamilton, called a number of steel supply places that I know of...none have come back with 15n20, 1080 isn't a problem.

so... do any of you know where i can get 15n20, or a different combination that would make a good start?
Maybe a list of steel supply places, i could have missed some?

I'd drive max an hour(one way) for steel, or could pick it up at A+H custom machine in Burlington.
thanks

Used it for pins before. Got a whole bunch from two boxsprings, but the spring is almost two hard for what i'll be doing, might work nice for the inside of folding knives....

have a picture here of the hitler youth knife...
thought the same thing when i saw it, but maybe just the same style

ok, had another night of forging, and I decided to just try a separate piece, to see if I could get a weld in ideal circumstances.
I forged out a peice of the torsion bar into flatbar, and gave it slight convex face, so that the slag/flux could leave easy. Low light (nighttime), heated anvil, added borax at red, nice bright Yellow no sparks, just tapping the piece together, ...nothing.
Not even sticky. At this point I decided that it's probably not my technique so much, as the steel itself. Got lots of practice shaping though, ready for the next one.

I agree with the people who have cast doubt on my plan of how to form this Ice Axe, it would be better to do differently.
I figured that if I split the rod down the center(1) and used one side for the head, and then upset the other side for the adze,(2) where the actual split would occur would be a bit of a mess with both arms running on a curve into the shaft(3).
However, if I try using a sort of triangular drift after punching a hole, like fciron says, I might be able to pull off(4).

Do you folks think it's possible to more the metal from the shaft up to the top of the head like that? I've never tried anything like that...

Thanks to all the helpful people!

Ice Axe.bmp

Don't use it! It's dangerous!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Everybody else was doing it... I will take you at your word that you don't intend to actually use this thing as an ice axe.

Tough to diagnose your welding problem, but I will say that some alloys contain elements that form especially tough, flux-resistant oxides that interfere with welding. Chromium is one such element. 4140 is sometimes used for torsion bars (definitely not always; I had one tested and it turned out to be 5160), and it contains about 1% chromium. I've never tried forge welding the stuff, but at least in theory that chromium seems like it could be part of the problem. (5160 has almost as much chromium as 4140. Some people complain that 5160 is hard to weld, too. Others scoff at that complaint. Take your pick!)

Thank you MattBower, I feel like you're one of the only ones who actually read both entire posts, instead of just assuming I have a deathwish.
I have worked with 5160 for a number of my blades, but it just didn't feel like the same kind of steel. Maybe it's just me. Junkyard rules, I wouldn't be surprised if there is other 'stuff' in there.

ironstein: Thanks, thats probably a big part of the problem, I was working outside in the Canadian winter, that probably didn't help.
chichi: In the books I've read "sparks scream weld me". Obviously books are not a substitute for experience, so I'll try a different less subjective way of telling heat than colour next time. it wasn't sparking like nuts or on the anvil, just a bit in the fire.
Francis Cole: Not even going to try fore welding stainless, from what posts, tutorials etc. I have seen it is way out of my range.

Something else I read, it said it had to be a reducing fire. Is there any hard and fast way of telling for sure if it is reducing?

Thanks

Thanks Rich, I was hitting with my heavier hammer, pretty hard. Try the ball peen instead on a few test pieces.
I did add borax at a red heat, before bringing it up to welding temp, but what do you mean about brush flux and repeat? Shouldn't I be doing a quick weld, add flux, back up to welding heat, weld further, flux, up to heat etc. until the weld is finished? Or did I just misread what you said...

Just wanted to point out (AGAIN) that this head is not likely going to be used for climbing, we have proper ones for that. It will be far too heavy, and was meant only as a project to learn technique/shaping etc. The only person swinging it will be me.

It is a mountaineering head loosely patterned after the Black Diamond Raven Ice Axe: (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442629209&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302691717) don't know if the link will work.

Thanks SGropp, that is an awesome article, wish I had seen it before I started, but...

The real reason behind doing this in multiple pieces was that I couldn't figure out a way to take the rod, and pull it off in two separate directions and still be leaving enough steel to actually create a good size head. Also by trying to forge weld it the head section is still attached to the shaft by a single continuous piece of steel, the welded on adze is just an extra lump. No power hammer or fancy dies, just my arm and railroad anvil with a ball peen hammer in between, so I realize it will take me a while, not a problem.

First I doubt a torsion bar will be something like 4140. More likely a spring steel like 5160.

I would also think that yellow is too cold to weld at. All of forge welding I have seen was done at a white heat, almost a sparkler.

my yellow was sparking on the end of one piece, so I don't think the heat is too big an issue...

I have forged an mountaineering iceaxe head in two sections out of a (likely) 4140 torsion bar.
the first section is the head (pick) and flat bar section for bolting into the handle. (pic 1)
the second section is the adze and two bars coming out of the adze, one straight out, and the other perpendicular.(pic 2)
the idea was that I would forge weld the straight bar of the adze to the top of the pick, and forge weld the perpendicular bar
to the bulb above the flat bar section.(pic 3) This would leave a roughly triangular shaped hole in the middle of the head.

I went to weld the sections and had trouble holding the pieces in alignment as they are pretty heavy. Enlisted my dad's help to hold the adze section.
Got up to nice bright yellow, used borax as a flux and... no weld.
Heated up again, more borax... still no weld. Not even a slight hold.
I have done forge welding with mild before, and I understand that hi-carbon is harder to weld, but it seems ridiculous that there was absolutely no weld.
Both pieces were perfectly clean, I filed clean the sections to be welded until there was nothing but bright steel.

So, is there something I am missing/doing wrong/need to adjust etc.?
I can always stick weld it together, but I'd rather not muck up the finished look with a stick weld.

(And yes, I know this will be very heavy and it's unsafe to use untested equipment, it probably won't get used on the waterfalls, its more for shaping/technique practice than actual use)

Awesome! Mind if I steal, I mean Borrow, the design?

Which way did it curve? Sideways on the flat of the blade or up towards the spine?

You can oil finish using your choice of oil and applying at black heat. This works with shortening, vegetable oil, lard, and furniture oils like Linseed. Use only food safe products on food service pieces. The oil will burn in like seasoning a pan, but can give uneven results. Linseed oil with chemical driers (often sold as "boiled") can give subtle funky colors to the finish, but should not be used on pieces contacting food.

Phil

Thank you ! this is exactly what Ive been looking for. Tried it on a few scrap pieces yesterday, I love it. Been looking for a non painted black finish for bolster, hilt on a knife I'm working on slowly. this fits perfectly.

The chuck on my drill press will only hold bits down to a 5/32" shank,
but I often have to drill smaller holes.
So, I found out that if you put heat shrink tubing on the last 1/2" or
so of the shank, it holds fairly well in the chuck.
As long as you center punch the hole the drill bit will follow.

I'm lovin it. been trying to get a handle to look like that for a while. any pointers, specially on getting the fibre to lay nice in low spots, or is it one solid chunk that you carved up?

love the finish on the back plate.
how'd you do it?

wish i had one

how bout hamilton, its southeastish?
whats involved?