dothacker

Cast meaning you cast the shape, rather than the wool-resembling forms or non-solid forms. Glass casting uses different materials, at least as far as I've seen anyway. It does get hard and brittle, but so does cast iron. Many forges still use this type of refractory, though it is less convenient than woolen types. They can be used for a long time.

I was just referring to burner placement and articulation. The burner body (intake tube with bell) should not get hot. It is drawing air for combustion into the forge along with the fuel. This mixture is combusting maybe an inch into the forge and creating the jet-like flame. My forge burners stay so cool you can put your hand on them and they are barely warm.
You can plasma cut and roll your tubes, i was just stating that you should make sure and keep everything smooth. Aerodynamic is the key to an efficient design. If you have a jagged tube it will create turbulence and your flame will be all over the place. Good luck. Just remember that it needs air to combust properly.

Alright, so if we have this here: http://www.iforgeiron.com/Blueprints01/BP0192gasforge/4PICT0057.jpg there is space between the pipe and the inner opening? I can weld the reducer to the outside then, as well?

*edit*
Two replies since I hit the reply button, ok. As for freon tanks, those are not considered common here, as are pipe fittings, though I can go to a store far away and get some. It did answer some questions about the burner, which I was unable to find sufficient information about on the rest of the forum. I will try to make some progress on the burner tomorrow. Thanks for the input.

Peacock, I was thinking of turning it on a lathe and welding it to the pipe and sq stock. The print itself was a bit confusing, though.

Ironstein, I was also debating upon whether to burn it out on a CNC plasma and roll it, it would be perfect size and shape, I was concerned of if it could withstand the heat, if it came into contact with it. If it's at the top and it throws down on top, does that present an issue of heating the steel too much, or did I misread the intention of your statement? Like I said, it may turn out to be less trouble to make the parts than to go to town in the winter then strip the galvanization with acetic acid (it's all I can get right now). However, I'll also ask if anyone has spare parts around.

*edit*

You cannot increase the power of your torch. You will need to build a proper burner. The pipe will be the cheap part. 7 inch long 3/4 black pipe and a 1 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch bell reducer. 6 inches of 3/4 square tubing, a brass 1/8 pipe plug with a .028 hole thru it, a 1/4 inch ball valve. The expensive part is the propane tank, hose, and regulator put it all together put as close as you can to the center of the top and it will get hot.

What I meant to say by confusing was that instead of the 1/8 pipe, I'm using 3/4, and I'm not sure what the sq tubing is for, to hold the pipe to the reducer? It doesn't quite match the print.

For the bell, since we are not using any of the thread, can I just weld up something in that shape? Does that need to be very thick or can I get away with bending up a cone from 16g steel?

"Til shade is gone, til (sic) water is gone, into the
Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with
the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day."

It is generally considered good manners to credit an author when quoting his work, however Robert Jordan (James Oliver Rigney, Jnr.) died in September 2008 so I guess he is past being miffed at this oversight on your part.

I could have sworn I put credit at the end, but I guess I did not, my mistake.

The guys who have generoulsy given of their time and knowledge responding to this thread are very much alive and could very likely take exception to your seemingly ungracious and beligerent comments.

By your own statement you are claiming a unique gas forge design, with the only similarity between it and existing, proven gassers is that they occupy a similar space, yet you seem to be demanding that someone applauds your efforts, pats you on the back, oh, and by the way tell you exactly where and how to place your handy man propane torch to make it all work efficiently.

Where did you get that idea? I do not look for credit anywhere like most who make a thread to say "Hey, look what I made today." I see no uniquity, a forge is a container, all others are a variation.

I stand by my opinion that having regard to your comments you appear to have no grasp of the basic principles of a gas fired forge, but you are persisting in rejecting replies that don't suit your argument in a fairly unpleasant manner.

I am rejecting harassment replies such as yours, you cannot seem to accept that I do in fact accept refractory, while having said what I did. I will admit, I did not expect people to take it so literal, else I'd have worded it in another manner, so that is my mistake.

BTW the stated volume of your forge including 'refractory that is never needed' is about 54 cubic inches. Peacock told you the capacity of your burner is about 12 cubic inches. Did you expect him to tell you that it it would be insufficient so that you could deem his response to be unpleasant?

Did you, once more, not read? I am going with his idea and removing my existing torch to build what he suggested for a burner.

Young man I suggest you step back, take a few deep breaths then return with a more moderate attitude and a willingness to to accept advise from those with a greater knowledge, and a reluctance to argue from a stance of ignorance.

I'd rather take advice from someone who shall not be a hypocrite, and keep a cool head. Thank you, the argument is officially dead.

How will this be assembled? A simple M$ paint/gimp picture will suffice.

I made one like that before, but it's too short. It got really hot though. So, to increase the power of my torch, what would you recommend? I have welding tools and as odd as it is, it's easier for me to make stuff than to go to a hw store and buy pipe bits.

I have seen it, but it would not matter where on his, as his is round to begin with. So I have advice from 2 people here saying that it should be toward the back wall on the side, and this one where it's in the center on the side. What are your opinions on each?

You have stated many times "tell me what is wrong with my design and I will fix it" In a nut shell your forge box will disapate BTUs faster than your burner can create them. Your burner has to heat the box before any stock can be heated to forging temp. Your burner will heat a volume of about 10 to 12 cubic inches of properly insulated space. The mass (weight) of the forge needs to kept to a minimum to make it work as you must heat that mass first before any stock can be heated. It really comes down to the weight of the forge not the thickness of the shell. We all really want to help you. Most of us have wasted alot of time and money making mistakes. We would like to help you avoid the same.
Phil+

Thank you, this is perhaps the first pleasant reply so far. The mass part makes sense, but I'd rather not spend money on wool when I already bought castable refractory good for 3500 degrees F. I plan on making that about half an inch to an inch thick. A small space like that will be quick to heat, I suppose. Even enclosing the torch and metal in a coffee can with nothing else increased the temperature dramatically, so I thought it wouldn't take much to heat a small space like what I'm imagining my forge will be after refractory. However, as most of the mass will be refractory, it would be different than if I was heating up steel alone, right? So you say 10-12 cubic inches, right? Given the final inside dimensions will be somewhere near 7.75"X2.625"X2.625", are you saying this will be sufficient, or not?

In the same sense that a computer is never required in your life. It just makes things easier. What is REQUIRED is food, shelter, water, etc. Do you see what I meant? I was hoping we were past the trolling. I WILL be using refractory and I DO believe that in 99% of forges, it SHOULD be used. I will try not to say once more what I have said many times before regarding my intention of refractory. We are done.

Having gone past the argument portion, for good, what indeed makes mine different than any of the other forges I have found on google? Other than using wool, that is. I still have no definitive answer on where to put the hole, or why, and after searching and even asking, no replies on burners. Sure I could steal the design linked here a hundred times, but that website itself says not to and that there are myriads of working designs for gas forges, some of his are similar to mine, and that the premade burners on his site need to be modified to suit your purposes. If I did a bad job at searching, link me to useful information and then shun my searching skills.

Dothacker, you said you have been researching gas forges for FOUR years, in that time did you ever find a gas forge design that did NOT use REFRACTORY material?

Researching blacksmithing for four years, note my many statements stating my lack of ever making a gas forge.

Do yourself a favor, stop obsessing about the most efficient location for the burner hole and have a good think about the forge itself, because you have missed the concept entirely!!!!!!!

Please state for me what is wrong and I will fix it.

This type of forge is all about the REFRACTORY, the outer shell is only there to provide a platform for the REFRACTORY. This is why you see so many different casing materials and designs. The forge could be constructed without any form of casing if you used a REFRACTORY material capable of supporting itself during use.

Even while refractory is a casing, you clearly have not read my posts and merely skimmed to the words that you disliked.

If you want to persist with your design without the inclusion of a REFRACTORY material inside the box I would suggest the most efficient placement of the hole for your propane torch would be where it allows you to place the torch inside the box with the burner facing outward. That would allow you to slowly roast your piece of steel in the torch flame without having to hold the torch in one hand.

Again, you have not fully read what I have typed. I have on many occasions stated that refractory will, and let me state that again so that this time you may skim the word, will, be used, but only after the hole is drilled, you do not cast material and drill through it, it is not practical and it makes it unstable. I have never had the intention of holding anything but a hammer and tongs in my hands during the forging process.

Thank you.

Well, until now, it worked fine in open air with no housing of any sort. Been using it not to forge, but heat treat a few things (of little importance because there is no even heating, but beats dead soft steel).

My torch presently is the TS3000 Trigger-Start Bernzomatic Torch. (Product Detail) Btw, they misspelled "applications" on that page. :P

What are the dimensions?
Without at least one inch of wool your efficiency is non-existent for a gas forge. Using firebrick stacked loosely together may be more efficient than a plain steel box. Conduction through the sides is your greatest controllable energy loss, then its IR radiation through openings, only after you can sustain an incandescent cavity.
Phil

Wool is too expensive, I'm using castable refractory. By the way, I stated earlier 9.5"X4"X4".

Glad you're thinking about refractory, without it it just plain won't work. The forge will never get much hotter than the walls are. Sounds like you want to use a small propane torch to heat this, is that right? If so, you will not get enough heat from that to heat a forge. Well, short of the "one brick forge" anyway. And I already gave my opinion on placement of the burner.

Again, stated earlier, I cannot add any refractory until the hole is placed, and yes, a small propane torch that uses those blue propane bottles. Sure, but you never explained why it would not work "even with good placement". Why also will that torch not work?

Hmmm...the only difference I see between mine and this: Plans to build a simple gas forge is that mine is square (round after refractory is added), and his is round. Obviously he intends to forge larger objects, so he uses a larger diameter. Or am I wrong, and there is something more?

I still am not seeing what makes mine so bad, could you please explain what is wrong in detail so I may learn? I do not care if I must start over, I could use this box for storage of tools or something, it may even work for a coal forge, though it would not hold much. However, it seems to be an "exercise in futility" to try and run a forum for help and not teach people. All this sarcasm is not getting anyone anywhere.

Now, ironstein, a lot of the ones on google are worse off than mine. I know mine could heat steel, but I want it to be as efficient as it could be, no sense putting the hole one place when it would be tons better in the right place. The only similarity is that they're all boxes or tubes with a hole filled with refractory on the inside.

Thanks for your input, but would you mind explaining why?

Sorry, I'm not familiar with "the older 1 inch thick cases". Questions are fine, but you are stating things as fact that are, well, absurd. GIGO.

Regardless, can we get past this now and would you please offer some useful input toward the better answering of my previous stated question regarding hole placement and usage/design of said burner systems as well?

I already stated what I meant by that. There are times where it IS required, such as with thinner cases to make things more practical, but suppose you had some of the older 1" thick cases, you will not burn through that with normal forging. However, it is not cost effective to have walls that thick these days so we compensate with refractory. The added benefit is the extra heat retention.

Can we just drop the semantics and get to the issue at point? This thread has become just a collective argument and that really was not my intention. I was just hoping to have a simple question answered by those who know more than I.

Why would you turn the torch upside down? I don't think you're supposed to do that anyway.

As for the burner, I have looked and I can't find much info about what a burner exactly is or does.

That is what the refractory is for, Bryce. But regardless of how hot the box gets, I cannot try it until I have put a hole in it. :P

it wasn't a complaint. Perhaps if you had posted what you were trying to do and with what hardware you wanted to accomplish this, you might have received info to your liking.

I was not referring to you in specific. I did post what I was trying to do, I need to figure out where to put the hole for the torch. I have pistol drills and drill presses at my disposal for this.

Sounds like you are asking for help and frustrated with the answer.

I have been given no answers.

What you are attempting to make might work to heat metal, but won't be very efficient. Most of the forge designs i have seen have the burners aimed at an angle through the top. these are burners designed to suck air into the forge with them. If you just stick a propane torch through a hole and close the door on that box, it wont have any air to properly combust. If you look at the gas forge section on this site, you can find info on making your own burner, and it is pretty cheap.

I am aware of the fire triangle. I'll admit, however, that I do not know a lot about gas forges, they are different from coal types. I figured the door would provide plenty of air with maybe another hole drilled in the side (not sure where relative to the torch hole) with a fan to blow air in. I did take a look and there wasn't much to be found about burners.

I am not trying to argue here, but it does seem like you could ask questions to fill in the gaps that I did not provide info about. As stated, I am new to gas forges and I willingly state that I do not know enough to provide every detail.

This is a small forge, my torch will be a little one that uses those small blue cylinders. However, as I said before, I cannot place refractory until I know where to do the hole issue. It will not be used much, just for small stuff. It's 9.5"X4"X4".

Refractory is required if you use a thinner steel, it'll make it last longer, but in theory you could forge in a soupcan...for about half an hour before it falls apart to nothing.

Anyway, I'm seeing more complaint than help. Are there any actual ideas on how to finish this up? Thanks.

The door is 1/4" thick steel, as is the rest. Refractory is never required, it just makes heat loss less and makes it more efficient. I may indeed line it, but I cannot until I decide where to best place the hole. I could put it in the bottom (the shiny side) in the center and have the torch direct straight at the metal placed in there, with the forge lain handle up, or I can drill a hole in the side and have the heat spiral upward as it escapes. Which of course would mean I would have it sit shiny side down.

I have yet to see a design like mine, google has nothing for me I have not read time and time again over the span of 4 years since I first took interest. I just came here to look for input from someone I hoped had more experience with gas than I.

I need advice on how to finish the forge itself. I welded up a basic shape, and it's a box, has a handle and even a door. The issue is that I need to drill a hole for the torch head itself. Any thoughts?

My tools are in a shop, my armoring/forging will be at my home. I cannot armor at the shop as the hours are limited and they would not appreciate it (OSHA and other safety things as well could be a problem in the shop). I know the general idea of a press but I have no idea what kind of shapes would work for what. A quick M$ paint rough draft of dies would be nice if anyone cares to make one. I'm guessing a ball with a same sized ball depression in the bottom is one, and perhaps a bar with a bar size cut out would make flutes? I've never really used a press, occasionally we use one in shop but it's not for things like this.

A press eh? I am a machinist and possess all the tools and machinery to make something like that during shop hours. Do you have a rough sketch? I'm not quite grasping the concept of the dies you talk about. Yes, this is about armor mostly with a few other sheetmetal misc. items mixed in. If you can suggest shapes and sizes for dies I will try my hand at making a few and we will see. The noiseless part intrigues me highly.

SLOB: Thanks for the ideas. My "anvil" is a 8" x 3" x 1" block of steel with 4 1/4-20 holes tapped in it.

Thanks for the info Glenn, but I was kind of hoping for more contact info, there is none on the site, maybe so I could confer with the smith by email. There is an admission fee and I don't want to waste a trip because of the fee as well as the distance and time it would take if you know what I mean.