bigred

Red a coiuple of things here jump out at me: Have you seen any of the work of our "this side of the pond" smiths that did not have the training and certification program that you have in place? Ian fromm youir side has..have youi gotten his thoughts on our abilities?
And,,since you mentioned it. An elevated walk way in a hotel in Kansas City fell years ago and killed, if I remember correctly, 18 poeple. This was designed by trained folks and constructed to meet codes and requirements of the time. Which I relate to illustrate that at times standards and expectations do not meet needs in all cases. Yoiu have strict guidelines on farriers that require long hard work to prepare a person to work at thata crafct. Here anyone can sayh they are one and go to work. it does not take long for those to learn their shortocmings and seek the knowledge and abilitiies they need or folks will no longer hire them. And the flip side of that is that some folks that go to good schools and learn all they can in this area never really become wot they envisioned. The ABS was mentioned above. They indeed have an in place training and testing program that for some works and for somme it does not. I have seen blades by both back yard hobbiests and abs Mastersmiths, that it wouild take a panel of qualified,(who wouild that be?) Judges to try and see any difference in fit finish overal quality and perhaps even desireability. It is hard to paint a grouip with one color one brush and be correct.

Thanks big red I'll remember that when I get and o/a rig. Seems kinda silly that the safety board hasnt gotten its hand on that one and made it mandatory to have some kinda warning on the regulator.

Hi McB,

I am sure that you will get me when I say that life has two kinds of people - sayers and doers - most of the peeps on this site I have run across are doers and would, given the opportunity, make excellent 'smiths. But, if you had noticed earlier subsequent to my o2 and grease remark that there are those - even on a well run and informative site such as this - who would , in the absence of knowledge to the contrary, perhaps grease an o2 reg stem. I seen the remnants of this once in a boiler shop on a Gold Mine in South Africa in the 1980's - fragments. No trained artisan would do such a thing or many other things like it,

Would you be quite happy that a self-taught operator hung a balcony that would hold the lives of your daughter or grandchildren? or would you prefer someone who had a good grasp of the mechanical dynamics of such a thing and what its load safety requirements would be - all of these parameters are not stipulated in code, so one has to rely on the knowledge skill and experience of whoever is doing the job.

Precisely my point Tom

In the environment to which you refer all of the 'smiths would be using exactly the same processes and materials, therefore real knowledge and skill would be the sole arbiter of quality - good well trained 'smiths would get all the work and self-styled 'smiths would get what the trained man didn't want or couldn't handle. In an environment where all you had was the self-styled 'smith, well it was 'Hobson's choice' really.

The difference is, these days there are many engineering processess and solutions which may all produce a reasonably similar outcome, some of which are cheap, tacky, not well engineered and certainly not as durable as others - but at least on paper appear so. If the client isn't skilled at reading eng drg's, then it is easy for them to fall into the trap of cheap facsimiles produced by semi skilled operators - if I can't compete with the MIG welding brigade - then I can't afford to train an apprentice and so pseuds are bad for the trade when operating in direct competition with trained artisans.

Cheapo re the tag line - fighting to maintain standards within a trade I love isn't suppressing freedom - it is protecting the rights and freedoms of those artisans who have put so much into learning, developing and maintaining the correct methodology, skills and practices of this trade, from the unscrupulous pseuds who would usurp the title Blacksmith.

Point taken Rich.

I think it is me who is labouring under the misaprehension that this site was a trade site when - mostly - it is a hobbyist and metal artist site.

Nowt wrong with that, a place for those interested to find out more and to improve their knowledge and skills, also fair play to those old pros who are happy to come and share their knowledge and experience - I think it reflects the fact that there is no formal Blacksmith training in any orgasnised way over the pond - over here where there is still a well developed trade system most 'smiths wouldn't tell anyone other than another 'smith anything ;) and even then it's unlikely they would give up their own little tips an' tricks learned the hard way and jealously guarded.

I suppose also that I have a little bit of a jaundiced eye having just lost out on a pretty lucrative railing and gate job to a mob I know to be no more than tackers and welders' mates. Customers unfortunately do not really appreciate the difference between a gate that, with a little annual maintenance, will still be standing in 50 years, and one which will be weeping rust from welded joints hidden behind collars, within 18 months. Try explaining this and they simply think you are trying to bad mouth your competition; try explaining that you will manufacture each component by hand and fit it to a proportionally hormonic piece, using materials and methods which will ensure the longevity of your work - and they think you are just trying to pump the price. Down the line the customer realises that you weren't Bull Dusting him when his gates, manufactured from cheap Indian/Chinese machine forgings, bleed rust everywhere and begin to sag or lose shape as a result of poor mechanical design, innappropriate material etc.

The unfortunate result (at least here), is that to compete, small owner operators such as I have to dive in and swim in that same semi-skilled pool, so that now the vast majority of railings gates and associated external ornamental work consists primarily of the aforementioned mass produced machine forgings welded into (mostly unsuitable) frames. The fact that we are formally trained is at least some gaurantee of quality, but when the lines become blurred, quality is always the first casualty. IMHO unless someone can provide evidence of competence verified by a recognised trade body then they shouldn't be allowed public liability insurance.

Monster - know exactly where you are coming from - hence the tail end of my post re opportunity for mature individuals. Some of the most talented peolple I have ever worked with have been self taught but almost universally there are anomalous gaps and lacks in their knowledge which can prove extremely hazardous - one instance of a hydro-carbon based grease and an oxygen cylinder springs to mind.

But not only that - for the trade to maintain its status as a stand alone craft among the other metal trades, it is important that those who call themselves blacksmiths are Blacksmiths - formally trained, in a structured way, to turn out a quality end-product. Hobbyists are one thing, and fortuitous circumstances such as yours are a wee bit unique, but I would still argue for the trade system but somehow re-jigged to allow expedited training for mature apprentices

Steve - trades and trades protectionism had good cause - it maintains and guarantees standards and quality.

hear what you say TM - seems like there is an opening in th US for Smithing trainers - it is the land of seeing a niche and filling it after all :D

The necessary course materials are widely available in those English speaking countries who do train smiths and it would only take an entreuprenuerial spirit to intro formal training - if this site is anything to go by there is certainly the interest in your neck of the woods.

of becoming the most unpopular pseud on ifi i feel that i have to make one or two observations re 'training'.

There is a very good reason for the apprenticeship and training schemes run in their various guises in the various countries of the world. it's not simply about standardising skill levels, it's about staying in one piece in an industry that can kill you in the blink of an eye. In too many instances, in everything from grinding wheels to electrical safety, opinion seems to be given the same weight as knowledge, that is a dangerous thing.

I am a trained artisan and I am relatively new to this kind of forum (I thought it ws a trade kind of thing), and to be honest I am quite shocked at some of the suggestions and advice handed out by individuals, especially in areas of ad hoc fixes and builds on grinding wheels etc. Here in the UK (at least in the trades) formal training in all aspects of using and maintaining machinery is mandatory before you get to press the green button.

I would be very interested in the accident statistics for the 'interested amateur' v professionally trained artisan.

For my money, if you want to be a thing, then be that thing - don't play at it, or think it can be achieved by some kind of short-cut which gives you only the good stuff - find a college course, taster course, tradesman/artisan, company, corporation or some means by which you can achieve competence safely.

I know I wiill likely be crucified by the self-taught here but, in my defence, i have worked in this game all of my life, in more than one country, and in more than one hemisphere; in every single place I have worked it has been the simplest of matters to sort the trained from the self-taught - think about it - that means something. The only way to maintain standards within the trade (WHETHER IT BE BLACKSMITHING, FABRICATION, WELDING OR THE minor metal trades) is for basic competence to be established through the awarding trade bodies.

I am all for root and branch reform of these bodies to allow the entry of adults and to modify the training and requirements for qualification to more reflect the needs of more mature people wanting to train, but i feel a strong need to defend the necessity for maintaining standards through training - this will keep the trade healthy and respected.

All the best welders in the world must live here :P

A couple of the jobs on my CV have been as was a welding instructor for a North Sea Oil company and a leading hand on a power station pipe crew and, at least in my experience"Thomas Dean" has it about right. Around 10% of WELDERS (not rod burners), can get through a 5 or 6 G pipe test whether with a full pen stick root or tig root and most of those are usually just off the back of similar work.

Real welders know that to stay at the top of the tree you have to be doing it every day - that fine touch goes relatively quickly between contracts.

for me it's the 'bon homie' and the selfless sharing of both knowledge and technique - in some other places peeps can tend to be quite precious about what they know - not here.

I was also impressed by McB's comment re feeding the tigers and taking what one needs from the (gentle) melee - how refreshingly grown up ;)

TIE br

Thx TH,

Great site, great people, wish we had summat similar this side of the pond.

TIE br

Nah - I come from a far older line of scots called Douglas - originally from the south west. There are still places in the North where I wouldn't admit being a Campbell - even if I was one :o I have a boxed 50 yr old from North British distilleries - waiting on my 1st grandchild (Jan '13 another Capricorn <_< ), at which time it will be 'couped' :blink: I will post a pic of the offending bottle when I work out the mechanics of posting it. One of life's greatest pleasures is sipping the amber and swapping BS stories with like minded metal bashers - we are a dying breed - thank the gods for places like IFI.

TIE br

Failte McB B)

see from your prof we share a love of the water of life - I am lucky enough to have a son who works at the distillery who make 'Highland park', 'The Macallan' and 'The glenrothes' - pity you didn't live a little closer mate ;)

TIE br

Sorrry if I sounded a bit 'school ma'am-ish'.

TBH I never rated MIG as anything other than a semi-skilled (good thing) means of doing light fab not requiring top quality mechanical properties. The notable exception being in the heavy fab sector where the machinery is now able to compete with MMA for quality. Apart from the relatively low skill level reqd to produce adequet welds MMA, TIG and even oxy /acet (for brass brazing and hard-facing)are more versatile and produce far higher quality results. At least in the UK, gas and consummable costs make a MIG more expensive to run, and they are rubbish on-site in a gentle breeze (even with flux cored).

Ooops - my welders' antipathy for the ubiquitous MIG is showing - i'd better buzz off ;)

TIE br

I too have spent many years in high quality x-ray welding in fact I served my apprenticeship doing it and, while I agree that it can be stuck together as described, I wouldn't say that it was a right-job. Even though you are preping it, MIG just doesn't have the depth of penetration so there will be HAZ cracking under impact. Whether this cracking would lead to catastrophic failure or not is moot - it's about doing a right job on summat that's important. i agree with all of those who reco 7018 stick - 5 mins to do the job right as opposed to hours of perhaps wasted work if it fails. MHO anyway

TIE br