woodforge

Apparently it is not possible for the members to stay on topic Glenn. A direct answer to a direct question was all I was looking for and the closest answer I got to it is to read more about Galvanic corrosion. Yeah, I did that. I've studied Chemistry. I know how to look & studied with digital microscopes and chemistry at shapes, thickness, pipe designs, patina, wood stems, etc. etc. and all the varied parameters involved there. BTW, its not a good idea to stick somebody elses tomahawk in a gas chromatagraphy flame anaylyzer to see what it was made of. I've worked with conservators and studied thousands of originals and fakes. I don't go by gut feelings. But unfortunately I didn't ask about all that. Getting off topic seems to be all there is available here.

If a faker is any good you will not detect his work! I have heard of local men who have work in many museums worldwide, including the Smithsonian... they are not even THAT good. Old wrought iron is all around. I have some but have passed on huge piles of it that were being sold. Actually all steel will pit as it rusts, even modern mild steel. To one familiar with the character of wrought iron there are clear differences though... the grain of the wrought iron is very different from modern steel and is exposed as the iron ages. It will be quite difficult to detect the differences between old wrought iron newly worked and then aged in an accelerated manner from old wrought iron aged more slowly... well nigh impossible. You would have to base your judgements on style, character, and provenance to be effective... of course history has proven that those things can be successfully faked or imitated too. So I have to tell you that millions are lost hiring supposed authenticators who cannot expose fakes that are even unsophisticated let alone those that are very well done! In addition the supposed profession of authenticator is riddled with dishonesty... what better person to authenticate unauthentic relics? History provides us with many examples! I personally met and viewed art with an aristocratic authenticator who had a villa in vienna and was making quite a name for himself in Boise Idaho. He later slipped up and was exposed as a faker himself! He had used his authenticator status to gather signature samples from hundreds of living and dead artists... he found these files quite useful in providing him models for forging the signatures of these artists. Your field of supposed expertise is mostly existent to provide cover for victims and fakers alike.

I am not trying to make reproduction tomahawks.

"I need to know a little about metallurgy because I am a tomahawk artifact authenticator so knowing everything I can about it helps me determine what was faked with accelerated corosion and what took place naturally."

So the slag inclusions contain silicone (glass)? So following that logic would that mean that ALL pitting is caused by slag inclusions? I've seen steel pitted too and I doubt that had slag inclusions.

Actually it is the uric acid in manure that makes it rust so any other strong acid or base will do the exact same thing at different rates. So will salt water. The problem is when people do this to their "repro" tomahawks and try to fake these as authentic original 18th or 19th C. ones. Literally millions of dollars a year are lost in this way.

Hi,

I need to know a little about metallurgy because I am a tomahawk artifact authenticator so knowing everything I can about it helps me determine what was faked with accelerated corosion and what took place naturally.

I am trying to figure out what exactly causes pitting in the primitive version of wrought iron made in the 16th-19th C. (not the kind made today which is probably better quality). I have read at least a couple different reasons that conflicted with each other and the third one was using terminology that lost me completely. One reason I read was that these were tiny galvanic cells that are reacting with the slag/impurities and the other said the slag was what prevented the pitting by spreading out the corrosion to the entire surface.

Thank you,

Hi all,

I have this hand forged antique wolf/bear leg hold trap which the previous owner had heated the leaf springs so they would lose their spring...sorry I don't know the correct termnology for that. Apparentlly he was afraid someone would hurt themselves on it since it has huge teeth on it, but I'd like to restore it to its original condition. Is it possible to put the spring back into the springs? And without removing the springs from the trap?

Thanks,
Mark

Hi,

I am new to forging and have a peter wright 85 lb anvil which has a bit of a sag in the middle. It looks like it was beaten down enough that it sagged down like a worn out horse. It probably has a sag of 1/4" in the middle and goes gradually up toward the ends. The edges aren't that great either but okay. I read the anvil refacing BP but it appears to be concerning edges only. So my question is what can I do to fix this-- if anything?

Thanks
Woodforge

I have been trying to find out how I can tell the age of various axes by the way they were made. For example, I read that the Bessimer process was invented around 1855 and by about 1870 the process had been perfected, thus making it cheap enough to make axes of all steel. So my assumption then was that if the axe has "steeled" edges then it must be pre-1870. But then I ran into some problems. Apparently manufacturers were making iron axes with steeled edges up until about 1930!

Okay, so now I am really confused. Why would some of the largest axe manufacturers like Collins Axe Co. and others still use steeled forged axes when it was apparently cheaper & easier to just drop forge it entirely of cast steel?

It is the timeline here that I'm missing. Are there any conclusions I can draw concerning the date of manufacture of an axe by looking at the way it was manufactured? If it was drop forged can I say it was at least this x date or after? Yes, I know how to tell whether the axes have been steeled and no, I don't want to spark test any antiques axes. I realize these are general conclusions I am looking for and not absolutes. :confused:

Thanks a lot,
Woodforge

Ahh, that makes sense, thanks guys. I was scratching my head wondering how I was going to work on a hardy sticking out the side like that!

Well this is going to sound like another dumb question from a new guy but I can't help it. On either side of the waist or throat my anvil is a rectangular hole ~1/2 x 3/4". I originally thought these holes were connected & a hold down strap would go thru there however I now see it is only a few inche deep on either side & then is solid inside.

So my question is what the heck is that?

Thanks you:)

I can think of another danger from wearing a wedding ring that has nothing to do with blacksmithing! LOL

Mark,

Where are you located? Not your specific street address, just your state / region.

I know a couple guys that really know their stuff on hawks & axes.

Don

I thought I would introduce myself, name is Mark & I am ashamed to say I am not really a blacksmith but I want to learn about it. I do have a small English made 85 lb anvil & tools but no forge. The name woodforge I chose because I like to wood carve (not whitlin'-carving) and make handles for tools for other people & myself.

The reason I got interested in blacksmithing is because I have collected old tools for 25 years now & for the last 15 years or so collecting tomahawks & Indian trade axes along with other Indian trade pieces. I have been writing a book on the subject of Indian Trade Axe makers for the last 7 years amasing over 550 different blacksmith names and marks from all over the world related to the fur trade axes which I am trying to track down. So naturally it makes sense for me to learn as much as I can about blacksmithing.

I am trying to learn when various iron processes began, such as cast steel began around 1740 I believe but when was it used on an industrial scale to make drop forged items? What were the tools most used by a frontier blacksmith in the thickest wilderness? What are the best books to learn about how blacksmithing was done in the 1600's-1800's.

I do have a link on ebay's guide section for anyone interested in identifying tomahawks & trade axes from reproductions or outright fakes.
eBay Guides - Trade Axes Tomahawks--Authentic or Reproduction

Well, heres to us all learning something!
Mark

It is an artifact of the methods of making steel back then. So the "cast steel" axe could have very well been forged or dropforged to shape before stamping.

Thomas

Iyiyi, okay, let me see if I got this right. It sounds like the concensus among the majority of senior members is one MAY not really be able to tell just looking at an axe that it was forged, cast steel, drop forged or a combination of the forged & drop forged. Is that about right?

I understand how to look for seams, ridges or file marks where ridges were removed and looking also for the darker steel edges on iron. But in the abcense of ALL those clues it looks like there is no way to tell (lets skip the grinding/spark test--these are antiques). :)

Robert,

I would be careful with accepting everything on the TATCA website as fact. I would consider it all with a grain of salt & strongly consider getting other opinions. TATCA has some helpful information there but there are also mistakes. Such as the old ice harvesting axes from the 1888 Wm. T. Wood Ice harvesting catalog, the website claims may be misidentified in their own catalog & were probably tomahawks -- or the forged scythe handle parts found at dig sites that are referred to as tomahawks.

Hmm, interesting. There is no indication of a darker 'laid on' steel edge & all the metal looks the same other than those depressions I mentioned. Those depressions were the only indication I had it may be forged but now it looks like that is not necessarily so.

This spark test is new to me. Do you mean if it sparks (say on a piece of flint where it won't do too much damage) it is probably steel & not iron?

Thanks

Ahh, thanks for info. I think I'm getting it.

So if something was drop forged it would not have problems with cold shut voids though would it? Or would it? I mean it should not have a lack of pressure being applied I would think.

Does anyone know when this drop forging began as a fairly regular industry?

Hehe,well thanks for the advise but actually I was the one teaching the guy who started TATCA years before that began.

My questions were not about asking what this was but rather HOW it was made. For example, drop forging refers only to machine hammer forging? I've read conflicting things about drop forging & exactly what that means.

thanks,
woodforge

This post has been edited by the site admin.

That is very interesting! I didn't realize that kind of 'flowing action' could happen with forged iron or steel. I would say not pre-1800's & more likely mid 1800's or later but I say that based on the style/shape of it. It appears as thought the eye was punched out with something like a machine punch. the other hatchet I mentioined also appeared to have a punched out eye (not tapered inside like a drift or mandrel would leave it). A great many tomahawks were made in England & brought over here for the trade so that all makes good sense.

Yeah, I'm afraid my pictures got shrunk when I uploaded them somehow. The surface of the metal is smooth, I mean no evidence of casting seams. About all I can tell you is it has a couple of large 1-2" long depressions & the thickness of the axe (on the top & the bottom of the axe head) where it looks like melted iron or steel sunk in a void. There is no indication of a seam within the depression either. I've only seen a few like this & it just has me mystified as to how it was made. If it was forged I can't imagine why it would do that.

Hmm, when I was referring to cast I meant cast iron not steel which was used unfortunately to make a number of reproductions from the 1800's on. Of course the cast iron would be too brittle to be of use in real life & cast steel I had not even considered. There are really soooo many types of axes made to date that I've never seen a single book contain all the types & I have literally hundreds of books on axes.

Could it be an ice climbing axe? Possible but not likely. The earliest ice axes showed up around 1840's & did for short time have vertical blades & spikes but the handle is a bit short for that & there is no spike on the other end of the handle. Really the handle is way too long to be a tomahawk either. Try running with that 30" handle tucked in your belt! Course the handle could have been replaced decades ago too.

Of more interest to me though was not whether it is a period tomahawk or not, but whether it was hand forged or not.

I have another U.S. marked hatchet with very similar depressions. Does that mean it is hand forged or cast steel or....? I'm struggling to find more clues.

Greetings,

I am in the process of researching a book about Indian trade tomahawks & trade axes & was wondering if some of you blacksmith savy people could help out a rookie. I have seen thousands of eary trade axes & tomahawks & most of the time I can tell whether something is hand forged, or cast but sometimes I run across axes that seem to fit in-between a little. For example here (see pics) is an axe has a sunken in appearance to the iron. Now I can picture that happening in the casting process where the seams were neatly filed down & smoothed over or the forging process where the iron was not finished ssquare to the edge. So my question is are there any telltail signs or clues I can look for to tell me which it is? Naturally I have to deal with many fakes, frauds & reproductions as well as the authentic so any help would be much appreciated.








Thanks,
Woodforge