Dan P.

It could very simply have been a reference to wetting the parts of the fire you don't want burning, as in when the fire spreads, which can be a problem with charcoal.

So, in your opinion, Brian, why were tongs so very frequently made with a welded rein historically? 

I don't think it can have been lack of experience to make the judgement.

I am not saying that convention or tradition didn't play a part, but if you think anybody was doing more work just to observe a tradition, or that smiths back then were not familiar enough with their techniques and materials to be able to judge, I think you are straight wrong.

I think you could do with taking a step back and ask yourself if you are not maybe afflicted with a dogma of your own invention, i.e. that straight forging is always best. Is it?

Very nice piece, Dan P!!!

Thank you. 

 

 

The part of this discussion that has me troubled is that there is a tone by some that Brian could not be wrong in his assertions. This seems to have led to comments against anyone who does not agree with what Brian has posted. I have seen this with other well known blacksmiths where what they say is treated as though it has to be correct because THEY said it. Blacksmithing, like any other hobby or profession is a constant path of learning where through our experiences we make assumptions and travel a path that will diverge as further learning is gained. There are times our assumptions are correct and there are times they are not regardless of how far along the path we are or what our name may be.

 

Just some observations from a fellow blacksmith who truly just wants us all to do the best work we can.

It has been a complaint of some working smiths who used to contribute to this site that they found themselves being shouted down by the fan base of particular "internet personality" smiths. But I guess that's the internet for you!  

Here is something I made a little while ago, for those who suspect me (perhaps rightly) of being a troll. I don't know if I have posted it before. It is a sign post made in an 18th century style. It is entirely of fire-welded construction, using either the simple lap weld (being referred to as a "faggot weld" in this post) or simple scarf to scarf weld. To my knowledge it is still in one piece. The inner part is roughly 18" x 18".

Michael Budd from the UK put another solution to this issue on Facebook that I saw this morning. He added a wedge inside the crotch, and he came out with a beautiful weld and the members were not compromised either. Thanks Michael!

Using that little dart or glut in the inside of the weld will spread stress over two weld boundaries rather than just one, so in that sense it is stronger. It also looks very neat.

It does, however, still entail all of the defects that you have listed for the weld without the glut, i.e. wastage and intrinsic lack of strength.

A good friend of mine is currently studdying in Hereford and it appears welding on reins is mainly taught there to incorporante fire welding into tong making so the students can practice fire welding without just waisting stock material but actually making something usefull out of it. 

I studied at Hereford, and they teach that as a method of making tongs, along with other methods, such as forging out the reins, and cutting the reins out of bar. Why don't you ask your friend to ask one of the instructors why they teach it? 

 I was disappointed at the seeming rudeness in some of the earlier posts by Brian and Dan. But it was good to see that Brian apologized. Now it is disturbing to see the rudeness continue from you Dan. 

I understand the disappointment, but for the record, I would like to say that I have not used any curse words, nor resorted to crude insults, and really have nothing to apologise for. 

Dan P, you obviously do not understand what I'm trying to communicate. It's not a contest, it's not an opinion, it's not a belief, it is just the fundamental laws of forging.

Nothing to understand, Brian. You need to get out more, meet some real smiths.

Good for you for being self-taught, but there is a world wide community of smiths out there. You will meet some at the IBF. Paul Allen. Peter Crownshaw. These are two smiths who have forgotten more than either of us know.

Don't forget to test it Dan P.

Like I said, Jeremy K, I was shocked when I first saw this method being taught, and I guess it's being taught in the UK as well.

It is one of the most basic welds in blacksmithing, Brian. Of course it is being taught, though I learned it as part of making composite scrolls, not fire pokers. 

I can ony re-iterate; If your attempts at this weld have met with failure in the past, I hope photos or video will help you in better understanding the fire welding process. 

To put to bed any further speculation on the structural strength of this weld, you will need to check the parameters of your liability with your insurer. I very much doubt either fire welding or forging of any type would be covered in the case of litigation (i.e. structural failure). 

Well, the hook in the photos is "an alternative", I guess!
I'm a bit disappointed. I thought we were going to be looking at something a bit snappier than a bend, forged to a point.
My disparagement is unfortunately non-rhetorical in this case.


I will try and post photos, maybe a video of how to do this weld in the next few days.

Do I understand correctly that the bent over tip is what is being touted as a substitute for a correctly executed weld?

If so, that is just bizarre. It's not the same thing. It is just a bend that has been hammered on.

Now, Dan P, I don't get you. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Can you read and comprehend what someone else is trying to communicate? I don't mean this to be insulting, more as a joke actually. I've got to meet you. I think we would hit it off just great. I do enjoy debate. I just don't think you understand what I'm saying.

I don't think we will hit it off, Brian, xxxxxxxxxxxxxx edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

With that said, I think I will leave the conclusion of this non-conversation to others who can make better sense of your fatwah against fire pokers.

This weld is fine for making pokers. It is also a very fundamental weld to much ornamental ironwork.

Brian, if your personal experience with this weld has been one of failure, that is fine, nobody knows how to do everything. Explain the difficulty you are having, and one of the many knowledgable smiths on the forum will surely help you out.

For starters, the kink you are so worried about can be avoided by using the methods I suggested, and indeed the method you yourself suggested, and by various other methods.

However, I believe the accusation that this weld, in this application, is "wrong" is impotent. It is a very simple weld, often people's first, and there is nothing to really go wrong with it. Yes, there is an inherent problem of wastage and/or cold shuts, as with all fire welds, but with experience this problem is minimized.

Come on Dan P. Do I really have to spell it out for you? It's just like your rocking chair illustration. I buy steel bars. A wood worker buys boards. I don't carve material away like a wood worker would, but I forge the metal to form the structural elements for any given job. If I don't take in to consideration the physical properties and the structural integrity of what I'm building, there will be consequences that I'll have to deal with, like fussing with shaping a poker, for example. If I take out the errors that can occur in a given project, it will give itself to me with no fussing.

The problem is, there is no error to take out. You are chasing a total non-issue here.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, Brian.

A tree trunk is a very strong piece of wood, and if you want to turn into a beautiful and elegant rocking chair, you are going to comprimise that strength.

That doesn't mean the rocking chair is going to collapse as soon as you sit in it, if it was made competently.

You can't even shape the hook part without having to put the base of the two pieces in the vice. Otherwise, it will kink where the pieces are reduced before the weld and/or spring the weld.

Anybody with basic competence in smithing knows that, and would solve the problem.

I think you're getting the picture, Brian!

Or, you could hold the business end in an appropriate pair tongs, then bend the hook with scroll tongs, or carefully use a hammer.

Or, you could quench out the part you do not want to kink or bend, before bending the hook.

Many ways to skin this particular cat, and no need to put any undue stress on the weld.

I just say what I see, Brian.

I am honestly curious about these welds that can be done in w/i or pure iron that can't be done in m/s. If possible, photos would be enlightening.

It's important that you not confuse "structural", "structurally sound" and "sound" in terms of fire welds.

It's an easy weld to make. Does it have very much strength? No, but plenty for its intended purpose.

They did. They both agreed with me. 
 
I did say enough about my present master, he welds wrought iron every day and says it is easier to weld and to work than mild steel. 
 
I didn't say it was. I said it was easier for old time smiths to weld when when mild steel first became popular. 
 
Have a pleasant evening, I am retiring for the night.

I would still like an answer to what is the technique Brian uses to move metal as efficiently as he doe. On page 3 I posted"

The key seemed to be that a small section of the iron is pinched on anvils edge to get efficient movement of metal versus full flat hammer blows on the anvil flat face. I guess the rounding hammer is also key because it concentrates the force in a smaller area than traditional flat hammer.

Do I have it right?

Is this a correct description of the method?  As for tong reins, it is a free country.

The technique that Brian, like all experienced smiths including myself and many others on this forum, uses to do initial drawing out is to use a radiused edge to draw out the workpiece. Sometimes the edge, sometimes the bick.

So yes, you have it right. There is no trick to it other than practice, though having seen Brian's video on youtube, I would suggest working the material at at least an orange heat, rather than work it through to a black heat. A black heat can be used for finishing.

No, I work full time for a blacksmith that though 10 years younger than me, has more experience in certain areas of metalworking than I do, and vice versa.  He makes lots of things from mild steel, but thing which are very intricate or involved or difficult he makes exclusively from wrought iron. He has a good stock of salvaged wrought iron. He says it saves a lot of time on harder jobs. 

 

I can't say much more, without giving away his anonymity or my own, or his trade secrets, but I will say that I have known Thomas Powers for many many years and seldom seen him proven wrong, that when Doc makes a comment it is best to listen and learn, and the well known master I work for wouldn't waste his time were it not to his great benefit. 

I would imagine Thomas Powers and Doc can both speak for themselves.

As for your anonymous master and his trade secrets, if you can't say anything about them, why mention them?

Wrought iron is a peculiar beast, with it's own peculiar behaviours. There is nothing it can do, however, that wrought iron can't, except delaminate, and apart from the very, very worst quality wrought iron, delamination can be dealt with with a little care and know-how, and is not the reason for welding on the reins of tongs.

I consider the 3 years I spent working for a working blacksmith from when I was 19-21 to be an apprenticeship and that I am still at it more than 30 years later tells me it was successful. 

But not that it was formal, which is what was being discussed.

Laugh all you want, I watch it done every single day. 

You watch what done every single day? People talking "XXXXXXX

you may check this thread as it contains info on that actual forge weld on a fire poker :'?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>>

 Huh, I just had a look at that thread; no meaningful information on that weld at all.

If you are worried about delaminating wrought iron, take a welding heat on the tip of your stock, and butt it against the side of your anvil. That should fuse the raggedy bits. I was taught that by a man who has forged more wrought iron than the two of us have had hot dinners combined.

Welding on reins is just a matter of efficiency.