Conrad Hodson
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Posts posted by Conrad Hodson
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Heat the curved part of the hold down and slightly straighten the curve. Try that, first. I suspect that it is bent too tight.
Go ahead and try that. (I assume you're talking about the traditional one-piece holddown that's shaped something like a numeral 7, right?
If you still have trouble, try thinning down the "neck" of the extended part. Mine used to bounce out all the time until I reduced the cross-section behind the gripping pad by about one-half.
It also helps to roughen the shank; I cross-peened the part of the shank that's inside the pritchel hole during use; it holds better that way. (Doing this on one that's used on a woodworking bench wears out the holes sooner--not generally a problem on an anvil.)
Conrad Hodson -
The actual steel top plate on an eighty pound Fisher will be about 3/8" thick. It might appear to be thicker, but that is from the post-casting grinding at the factory.
Fisher's never had an 1 1/2" thick top plate. Even on my 800 lber, the top plate is only about 5/8" thick.
My 350 has the same thickness it seems, though the grinding scar you mentioned makes it hard to tell in places.
Like a lot of Fisher owners, I love the quiet. IMHO a church bell anvil is like running a chain saw without a muffler--the work is quite noisy enough without adding to it! Smiths back then could agree at least sometimes; a selling point in some of the old Fisher ads was: "The Quiet Anvil".
Conrad Hodson -
Sand, clay, wood ash, anything you can pack in that will resist the fire without breaking down will work. If you use something that has some insulation value you may be able to use less fuel.
ron
As the others said, almost anything that doesn't burn or crumble from heat. I used leftover sand and gravel from some foundation work I'd been doing.
Conrad Hodson -
On 10/4/2010 at 11:40 AM, Marcus Hopfinger said:
400#s isn't much different than having a couple large friends sitting in the back...sure the weight is behind the axel if it is the trunk and the leverage is different. Just don't pack much else back there and try to get the weight as far forward in the trunk as possible, make getting the anvil one of the last things you do so it isn't bouncing around for such a long time and if you are still a bit worried then drive a heavy duty truck to the wedding.
Or put the anvil in the back seat footwell. Then it's between the axles and really _is_ the same weight distribution as people in the backseat would give. If you put it in the trunk, try to get it as far forward as possible. That much weight right by the bumper could make your steering skittery in some cars.
When I found my 350 pound Fisher I was going through a carless period, so I borrowed a big old Ford Fairlane from a friend. The seller and I got the anvil into the trunk (not sure how, it took four people to get it out!) but we loaded it all the way back and off to the right side as well. Those old Detroit Dinosaurs had really long overhangs, so the car tilted down at the rear corner almost as if I'd taken that wheel all the way off. The car was driveable, but looked awful.
So I went by the owner's place on the way home. Thanked him for the car, as if I had finished the job, and told him everything went well "except that something went twang as we crossed the tracks, and it's sitting funny now." He looked out the window and yelled "Holy xxxx!!!!" and went running out there. Then I showed him the anvil and after he chased me around the car a couple of times he started laughing. The car was actually not harmed by all this; in fact I had occasion to buy it from him a couple of years later.
I would say go for it, but really look at putting some wood blocks in the rear footwells and setting your new anvil there. The car will handle the load much better, and just plain handle better too. And get help, at both ends of the trip. Two people can handle that much under ideal conditions, but bending over into a car is far from ideal. It's the only back you've got, and it needs to last you....
Conrad Hodson -
Are you using coal? Coke needs the airflow to burn, cutting off the air supply will stop it, but the coal will smolder till its used up. I dont understand how it can keep using fuel if you stop it from breathing.
Unlike the two of you, my fires _never_ go on like that. My coal fires go out (i.e. can't be blown back to life) about two hours after the blower stops, unless I make a point of leaving a chunk of wood pushed into the firepit to hold the fire. When I was using metallurgical coke, it would go out beyond recovery in 15-20 minutes--you could take a leak but if you took a phone call it was easy to lose the fire.
All I can figure is that your forge/blower combos must allow a lot more air to convect through the firepit (when the blower is unpowered) than my setup does. I do know that old-time coal stoves, without forced draft, would burn coal steadily as long as they had special grates designed to let the air up through the fuel. If the coal just laid on the floor of the firebox like wood does it would go out.
Try plugging the air intake on your blower when you quit work, and check for air leaks around places like your ash dump cover. I'll bet your problem is an excess of natural draft from somewhere.
Conrad Hodson -
My non-portable bottom draft forge, the 30-year model, has run on coal most of its life, except for a couple of years when I was using commercial coke to see how I liked it.
One amusing thing I forgot to mention--during my coke-burning experiment I ended up startling some of my friends by mentioning I was going up to Portland to buy some coke. They gave me that "I didn't know you were into that stuff" dubious look.
Then I mentioned I was going to buy 400 pounds of it. They looked at me with new respect--they had no idea I was a big shot....
Then I explained that the coke I was buying was "Pittsburgh Black" with a street value of $500 a ton.
Conrad Hodson -
In the little side draft unit, I've been running wood charcoal mostly(the forge was built for historical demo purposes), with occasional doses of coal when my charcoal supply has run short. No signs of tuyere erosion yet, but I don't have that many hours on the forge yet.
My non-portable bottom draft forge, the 30-year model, has run on coal most of its life, except for a couple of years when I was using commercial coke to see how I liked it. I never really noticed much difference in corrosion, but then I don't water my fire much, or leave the forge exposed to the rain. It stands to reason there's much more chance of corrosion from sulfurous/sulfuric acids if water leaches through green coal than through charcoal. On this note, while my forge has corroded very little, the sheet steel on the coal _scoop_, which sometimes gets left in the coal bucket, has needed replacement twice.
As for other fuels, I learned on gas (someone else's) and then discovered solid fuel, and never went back.
Ask the gas guys about their problems--the only one I've heard about is the way welding flux erodes their refractories.
Another solid fuel is bark. One of my mentors, who was nearing 80 when I met him, taught me how to use Douglas fir bark the way smiths did in lumber camps here in Oregon, a century or so ago. The bark is almost as clean as charcoal--I didn't notice corrosion problems and clinkers were few and far between. Basically he used a larger deeper firepit, about a gallon in volume; he said the fuel was less dense so you needed more of it. And he would throw in some supplemental coke or charcoal to reach a welding heat, but the bark could get you up to the edge of yellow. Can't beat the price, especially around here, where you can clean a hundred pounds and more of bark off one log car on the rail siding a block from my house...so far that's my best effort in being self-sufficient/sustainable WRT forge fuel, though I've been meaning to make more charcoal in the coming year.
Conrad Hodson -
We all have our preferences, but the fancy factory-made forges I've used don't even seem to _work_ as well as the simpler ones! Most of the little one-piece rivet forges and the like have no depth of firepit at all, and you have to build this huge mound to get out of the oxidizing zone.
Did you ever see that book Aldren Watson did--The Village Blacksmith? Wonderful drawings, lousy history (seems vague on whether he's describing smithcraft as of 1750 or 1900!), and the back of the book has appendices for building a bellows and a forge.
Well, the forge he draws and describes is this huge brick monstrosity, indoors with a big fixed hood. It would cost a couple thousand dollars to build unless you had an awful lot of old brick available. And after all that, you'd have serious limits on the size of curved pieces you could heat, because of the massive hood. And unless you built it dead center of a thirty foot wall, you'd have a nightmare trying to heat midsections of any long bar.
Personally, the only fixed forge I want has to be freestanding, with plenty of room around it. Recently I had to make a whole bunch of U-shapes in 20-foot bars! I have a smoke hood, but it goes up and down on counterweights and isn't connected physically to the forge at all.
There are forges that are no more than holes in the ground, with a buried run of timber bamboo or junk pipe feeding air from bellows to a homemade clay tuyere tip. There are also African smiths who do really nice work with those forges, and they didn't spend a dime on them. If you'd rather stand up while you work (I do) then make a raised platform of adobe/rammed earth. If you want to splurge on a few firebricks, you won't have to rebuild the firepit, but that's really all you might ever have to buy.
"The more you pay, the more it's worth" is strictly for suckers--but there's so much of that attitude poisoning our society that it's easy to drift into the trap. With our toolmaking and problem-solving capabilities, smiths are the last people on Earth who should fall for that one!
end of rant,
Conrad Hodson
Conrad Hodson -
I've got a non-cooled side blast. It used to be a Weber charcoal grill. I drilled a hole in the side for the pipe and lined the insides with wood ash. The pipe burned back to the ash insulation and has held there for a few years now. I started burning charcoal and since I now have some coal I burn that. The coal produces more clinker which can congeal on the pipe.
ron
In the designs I've used, erosion of the tuyere isn't a real-world problem. By which I mean, takes a long time to happen, costs nothing to fix when it does. But then, my forges have all been homemade, so there hasn't been any BS about proprietary parts or precision fits.
My first forge uses a thick-walled 3 inch steel pipe that runs crossways through an oil drum. Sand and dirt were shoveled into the drum and packed tight, until they were halfway up the side of the pipe. I drilled some 3/8 holes in a cluster of seven to make a grate in the middle of the pipe. Then I made a form in the shape of an inverted pyramid (just about the size and shape of the top of a concrete pier block), greased it well, and rigged a temporary frame of scrap wood to hold it in place. I poured refractory concrete (which cost way too much money but I didn't have a place I could dig fireclay back then) up to the height I wanted for a forge top.
This forge has lasted me 34 years, and the grate finally burned out last year--all the holes started burning together into one. I took a small rectangle of 1/8 plate, hammered into a arch to fit a piece of pipe the size of the tuyere, and drilled some more holes in it. Then I just cleaned the forge out well, and set the plate in the bottom flush with the original pipe. I didn't secure it in any way, but it hasn't shifted and the forge works as well as ever.
Two years ago I made a portable side draft forge for events. I bought five fairly thin, flat firebricks from a building supply, 2-3 bucks apiece. Two are flat and form the floor of the hearth, two more stand up and form the headwall. The inner corners of the upright bricks I knocked off, making a triangular hole that the tuyere comes through. The fifth brick is upright but on its long side rather than its end, and can be moved depending on whether I want a very small or larger fire. I bent frameworks of junk sheet steel to hold all these bricks, and any broken brick can be slipped out for replacement.
My tuyere for this forge is just a 1 1/2 inch water pipe with the tip forged down into a nozzle, perhaps a 2 to 1 reduction of area. I left extra pipe sticking out the far side of the headwall; if the tip ever burns off I'll just forge another taper on the burnt end and shove it forward a bit.
Both of these work well, both are very simple, neither one of them cost much at all. I teach my students that forges are the easiest of all the major tools to make for themselves, and that they shouldn't think that a forge should add much of anything to the price of a blower. The most expense I ever had for a forge was about 50 dollars for that first one, then I learned better. The first portable one I made was for an garden arbor installation, for heating collars before assembly.
A student and I built it in a 5 gallon steel bucket, with a hand-dished grate, the top of a propane tank for a firepit, and junk plumbing parts for the air supply and cleanout. Total cost less than five dollars, and it lasted four years. The little side-draft I use now cost about 20 dollars, but that was with store-bought firebrick and black paint to make it look pretty for the tourists.
Conrad Hodson -
Thank you all for the insights. I only have one 2-1/2" inlet on the bottom and one on the middle board. It sounds like I need to add another one to each board. I was concerned that if the hole was too large it wouldn't work properly but I can't think of a reason why. I'll add the inlets this weekend and post my results. Thank you all for your help!
I built a bellows about the size of yours two years ago. The valves are 3x5 inches and none too large. My valve flaps are thin cedar and close onto felt that surrounds each hole.
One innovation I added: I built each whole valve assembly into a piece of board, and then set those into the leaves of the bellows. The joints are sealed with more felt and the valve boards are held in by turnbuttons.
This way, if the valve ever gets out of order, or the bellows leather needs restitching, I can just remove the whole valve assembly for repair, or for giving me a comfortably large access hole into each chamber.
Conrad Hodson -
You can spend time or you can spend money.
Some folks brag about how much they spend on things; I've always bragged on how little. I don't hoard anvils, I've sold on a lot of anvils with only a small profit to cover my hunting costs and the only ones in my shop get used on a regular basis!
Right on! I'm always buying smith's tools on spec, but I don't hoard them either. Mostly I pass them on to my students, on the same basis you mention. One of the nice things about doing that is that I pass the anvil or whatever on at little or no markup, teach the student how to clean, restore and accessorize the thing, and collect tuition for it. The student learns how to make old tools live again, and gets their own tooling for mostly sweat equity. I get the tuition money and the joy of knowing I've saved another tool from the antique collectors.
Conrad Hodson -
Don't discount the $1 a pound pricing, even today. I bought a 170# HB last year for $175 (we thought it was 175#), a like new 125# JHM Journeyman w/single burner forge + 3 boxes of tools for $250, and then this little guy. All of these came off of my local CL. The other anvils I have are listed in an earlier post, and all were right around $1 a pound,and all over the last 20+ years. I still haven't been able to catch up with the guy in town who has an anvil sitting on the ground outside of his shop since I moved here. Looks like a HB in the 150-170 range to me.
As for pricing it is all supply, and demand. If people stopped paying $3,$4+ a pound, prices would come down. I call it the ebay effect. I am sure prices would be very different, if you didn't know what others were paying due to the internet.
Among smiths, there is more or less a market price because we're largely in touch with each other through newsletters, hammer-ins and big events. Antique dealers are also in touch, and we all know about their sort of fantasy pricing, but again they have at least a semi-standard market.
And then there's the whole different world, of garage sales and people who are simply getting rid of stuff. Those prices are all over the map--from inflated versions of antique prices to amazing bargains. I may have bought my anvils years ago, but I got a 100 pound leg vise with 6 inch jaws right in my neighborhood. My partner spotted it in a garage sale, and the guy was asking 60 bucks for it. She checked the screw and it was in perfect shape, even had its spring and mounting hardware there. She bought it on the spot, and the fellow proceeded to get guilty about charging her so much. He insisted on throwing in a whole wheelbarrow full of other tools, including a couple of anvil tools, some tongs, and a ten-pound sledge! This happened just two years ago.
Good deals aren't all ancient history. Our tools tend to be heavy (we must be the only people on Earth who talk about an anvil as being "only a hundred pounds") Some of the best deals I've gotten, thirty years ago or last week, have been from people who were moving, and didn't want to move that ton of old junk Grandpa had stored. Or people who were simply sick of stubbing their toe on the xxxx whatsis. (Freestanding blowers and dismounted leg vises seem to provoke people in this way a lot.
Conrad Hodson -
There was an anvils ring article years and years ago that mentioned a solar forge someone brought to the Dupres Wisconson conference(1984 or 86? I wasn't there) The article mentioned that it could reach welding heat, but only on a sunny day. It was built by someone from sunny climates out west.
This talk of lenses vs. parabolic mirrors is neglecting designs already proven from the 19th century. The favored design for solar steam engines back then turned out to be a trackable mirror in the form of a cone with the tip missing. It had a linear (not point) focus which they used to heat a tubular boiler. Their boilers would get to red heat _viewed in bright sunshine_ and would melt down if the water feed failed, so they're surely hot enough for a forge.
This design has several advantages for a forge. The work goes in through a small hole in the peak of the cone, along its axis. Which means the smithy is always in the shade, a major advantage in the kind of sunny climate you need to make one of these things useful. The heat is even, from all sides of the workpiece.
One small and one large drawback: the small one is that your iron will oxidize like crazy, unless you come up with some kind of gas shield for it. (Usually, our forges have an automatic gas shield of carbon monoxide, methane or propane due to a slight excess of fuel over air in the working zone.) Putting some charcoal in a holder alongside the work, with holes or nozzles to direct the CO vapor, should help, but I haven't actually worked this one out in practice.
The bigger problem is wind. Most of the 19th Century examples worked very well, until they were wrecked by high winds. Most of the areas (in this country at least) that have lots of sunshine have at least occasional violent winds, though the occasional sheltered valley or basin might be found. Some of the subtropical desert areas of the world are not so windy, and might be a good place to try this.
As always with alternative energy, location is everything. The installation that works to perfection on one site can be a heartbreaking waste of time and money the next state, or sometimes the next mile, over!
Conrad Hodson -
I want to make an anvil stand out of old railroad ties. I can get them for pretty cheap near me. I want them because I figure they won’t rot very quickly, and I could bolt a couple together to support the anvil. Then bury them below the frost line to make sure that it is stable. Do you think that this would work?
Should work well enough. I assume the ties aren't already half rotten--it would be worth the trouble to scrounge or even buy sound ones.
My own main anvil is mounted much this way, though I used a four-foot section of the largest size of utility pole, which is 16 inch diameter and heavily creosoted. I dug a hole in my smithy about three feet deep, and then poured gravel in and tamped it until I had the proper height for the anvil base.
The results surprised me. Three blows were doing what had needed four blows before, compared to various sit-on-the-ground stumps and stands. Given that the anvil weighs 350 pounds, I wouldn't have thought the base would make so much difference--but it does. The creosote has kept rot and termites and carpenter ants at bay for over twenty years now. (I do have a roof that keeps the ground dry, though our water table comes within a few inches of the surface during our winter rainy season.)
The one thing with the ties is that I wouldn't spare the bolts. You don't want one shifting past the other, since the whole point of all that digging is to reduce the amount of "give" in the system.
Conrad Hodson -
My smithy has a tin roof on posts and two open sides. In rainy season it has the only dry dirt around, and all the cats in the neighborhood think I built it just for them. When I start a forge run, the first move is cleaning up the little mounds of dust with a shovel.
Besides the cats, we get occasional visits from possums, raccoons and nutria. The smithy is shaded by a big walnut and smaller filbert tree, so squirrels often bury nuts among the coal.
Conrad Hodson -
Back when I was starting out, in 1974, I lucked into a 350 pound Fisher for $35. That was an exceptional price even then, but the seller had just marked it down from $50 because it hadn't sold quick enough! The anvil is dated 1890 on the heel end of the base, and is one of the models made for Southern sympathizers (no eagle trademark). It's lost the tip of the horn, the edges are chipped, and the face is very slightly swaybacked. It's still served me very well for 36 years.
In 1985 I picked up a 100 pound Vulcan for $100. From a yuppie type who had on impulse decided to try blacksmithing, bought a whole shop worth of tools brand new, and then discovered he didn't like the work. I strongly suspect because he got dirt under his nails. I only wish I'd got to him while he still had the rest of the outfit. The anvil showed absolutely no signs of use, let alone abuse. I use it as part of my "portable" outfit for events.
I also have a period-look medieval anvil for SCA demo purposes. It's just a 4x4x12 block, something like 80 pounds, which I've set vertically into a deep mortice in a stump. It looks just like the block anvils shown in early manuscripts. It's just mild steel; if it gets too battered I may hardface it. It cost me $75 from a steel dealer in 2008.
I love how quiet all three of these anvils are; I've come to hate the ones that ring like churchbells.
Conrad Hodson -
Thanks for the info guys, I have been looking a lot more on you tube especially at the blacksmiths from India and the Nepal region. The set ups they have and the tools being used - stone anvils etc are providing a lot of fuel for thought.
Do they show how often they change anvils? I have some experience working on stone anvils (we were demoing an early medieval smithy) and we found that pieces broke off of them regularly. We were using basalt, (the strongest stone available locally) starting in the 100-150 pound range, set into a stump with a big V-notch to accomodate the irregular shapes of the stones. Most work was with a 2 1/2 pound hammer.
Problem seemed to be that any time you set a stone up with a flat face uppermost to pound on, you are pounding on what a flintknapper would call a "platform". To them this is desirable, because they want to pop flakes off and that is the way to do it. Well, the "flakes" off the anvil weighed 10-30 pounds each, and just like a flint flake the edge at the bottom of the split was sharp. You had to be alert all the time, to twitch your foot aside because that's right where it headed, and it gave the impression that a heavy boot wouldn't even slow it down.
A lesser problem was the way the surface powdered away and roughened as you hammered. In period, smiths had little stake anvils or simple smooth metal blocks on another stump; they could take a final heat to smooth up workpieces that needed it, and probably just left it rough where it didn't matter.
It's possible people in other areas have stronger stones available, though I know that Icelanders and others got by with basalt. Certainly any smith who works at ground level like Africans and a lot of Asians do, wouldn't worry about big falling flakes--you could just bury the anvil stone a little, or bind the bottom with rope or withes, so that flakes could separate in a controlled way.
If you get a chance to check out any actual users of stone anvils, make sure to find out what sort of stone they prefer to use! And it still wouldn't surprise me to find their smithy at the base of a rockslide, just because fuel, iron stock and even customers are more mobile than great big rocks, and I suspect regular replacement will be needed. I know we found gathering new anvil material to be hard and somewhat dangerous, and we had modern motor vehicles to haul with!
Conrad Hodson -
I recently bought a hand crank buffalo forge and blower. I took the blower apart and cleaned and lubricated it but there is a plug at the top. Is the blower supposed to be filled with oil?
The case usually isn't oil-tight, so just shoot enough oil in there to let the gears splash it around. If too much leaks out, use a thicker oil.
At least yours has a plug! Most of the Buffalos I've seen have open oiling points, and after a hundred years or so of shop filth getting in there they rattle like a bucket of bolts. When I restore blowers I always make covers for the ones that are open. Used to just buy oil cups but they got hard to find. Now I use 1/4" nominal copper tubing and the size of steel hydraulic line (orig. for car brakes) that makes a snug sliding fit with it. Drill the case to take the smaller tube, whittle a twig to plug the larger one, cut them off and install them.
Only trick is to turn the blower upside down while drilling, so the chips fall out instead of in; and if there's a shaft right at the bottom of the oil hole I grind the very tip off my drill bit so as not to score the shaft.
Conrad Hodson -
Nolano- I'm glad you found Conrad, He's a great guy, really like him.. Tell him Mike in Klamath Falls has a pile of freon cans for his tripod stew pots, if you would.
Aw, shucks, Mike, didn't know you cared...
I actually sold out of stewpots this year, so the cans would be welcome. Margaret knows a local car AC guy who gives her one now and then, but a "pile" would be a comforting addition to the scrap pile. Maybe I can make it over to there this fall, before the passes get snowed in.
And of course, what any Oregon smith thinks of when they hear "Klamath Falls"--any chance you could turn me on to a scrapyard or farm source for those potato harvester rods????
As for chance finds of smithing tools, I'm tearing down (gradually, for the firewood) an old carpentry shop behind my neighbor's house. Anything I can salvage is mine, per the agreement. Just last week, under one of the workbenches, I found a pile of rusty scrap--with 3/4 inch shanks! Plus a few with handle holes--in all, five pairs of top and bottom swages. Also a hardy, a small flatter, and a pin maul head.
Conrad Hodson
Conrad Hodson -
So, since we are moving on to mounting the anvil in the chosen position:
Would fastening securely to a wooden stump be a good choice over merely fastening to keep in position?
Is the stump being loose vs buried partially loosing large amounts of energy?
Any other related wisdom?
Phil
It actually seems to make quite a difference. When I first got my 350 pound Fisher, I just had it on a section of log that sat at ground level. After I replaced the log section with a deeply buried heavy post (16 inches diameter by four feet long) I was startled by the difference. Three blows quite literally did the work four had done before. You would think so heavy an anvil would have so much inertia that the mount wouldn't matter, but it didn't turn out that way. The effect is even more important with lighter anvils.
Now I teach my students, who often end up working with small or improvised anvils in their own first shops, that they can make up for a lot of anvil mass by putting a lot of effort into a really good post, deeply buried. And digging a hole costs time but not money, which is usually important to them.
Conrad Hodson -
Mine is on the left, but I have plenty of room around it so I am constantly using both sides. I will use the far side (bic on the right) especially if I am working larger pieces of metal that I have to move with the crane.
When I first got my big anvil (350 pound Fisher, southern model, 1890) I set it loose on its post. I had to watch out for its tendency to migrate sideways, but I liked being able to turn it end for end when I was doing a lot with the horn or with fullers. I tried to come up with some kind of bracket that would hold the beast in place but could be released so I could turn the anvil when I wanted to. All to complicated or prone to jam up.
After way too many years, I realized that you don't actually have to hold a 350 pound anvil _down_ at all! The Earth does a great job of that. A husky friend and I turned the anvil upside down, and I drilled a 3/4 inch hole four inches deep into the center of the base. Then I drilled a matching hole a little over 8 inches into the anvil post, which is a 16-inch diameter section of mega-telephone pole that goes three feet into the ground. A foot of steel pin in the hole, and no more problem! I find I turn the anvil several times a day if the work I'm doing is diverse.
It works so well I've done the same with my 100-pound Vulcan that I use at demos, and several of my students have copied my mount. Smaller anvils may turn on the pivot pin when you make bends or otherwise use the side of the anvil, but if this is a problem a hole either side of the anvil, in the hollow between the feet, can take a drop-in pin that stops it. With the big anvil it hasn't been an issue.
Conrad Hodson
Eugene, Oregon
Mount for post vise
in Vises
Posted