FrankA

Thank You guys. That makes me feel a little less stupid. I will get new steel and try some more.

By the way: What kind of oil do you use? Does it really matter for blacksmith accuracy?

I got the blanks from Blacksmithjournal together with a smithin magician a couple of years ago but never used them until now.

I quenched it from the same heat I usually use to forge. Yellow with a bit of orange in it I would say.

For a while now I am trying to harden 4140 for use under the power hammer. I use 3/4 x 3 x 8 blanks that I bought for a blacksmith magician. I forge them to shape, soak them in my propane forge (with a little excess propane to not produce scale) for an hour, quench and then temper. For quenching I tried old motor oil first and for tempering my wife's kitchen range (400 F). The resulting tool did not hold an edge for butchering one tenon and the end mushroomed. I later heard that motor oil is no good and changed to 3 gallons of canola oil: Same result. Then I added 1 third Diesel fuel to my canola oil to reduce viscosity: still not hard. Finally I thought, even if it cracks: lets water quench. It did not crack, but the resulting tool was very soft again (for tempering this time used a knife makers kiln at 400 F. My tool, a feather swage for power hammer use had lost its nice surface after one leaf.

I asked this forum for utility hammer buying help in spring and received very helpful responses (some not helpful ones too). I finally decided that an Iron Kiss 125pound would work best for me. I ordered and received it just as expected, even got frequent updates while it was built. I used it on a couple of projects in the meantime. I like both hammer control and power. My 7.5hp IR compressor allows continuous (4 iron in the fire) forging for light duty (texturing, tenons, ...). For moving more metal I get 2 heats out of it, then have to pause or do some light work in between. I just had one problem: The 4140 dies were not hard enough. Slag left marks early on. I told John Larson and got his offer to resurface and reharden them for free. I received them back in not time.

Thanks to the folks on this forum and thanks to John Larson. A good hammer and good service.

Frank

Can't wait to test it myself

Thanks to everybody who participated, and especially to Glenn who put quite some effort into answering my question. I finally decided to order a 125# IronKiss. Larger mass and larger flat dies seemed worth the extra money compared to BigBlue. Phoenix never returned my calls nor emails.

Thanks again. I will be happy to report back after I received the hammer and had some time to try it out

Frank

I do not own an air hammer, but have run both Big Blue and Ironkiss machines. I own and regulary use a 300lb Bradley mechanical. A hammer of this size is not a good comparison to any of the smaller air hammers. That being the case, I still have an opinion and experience I'd like to contribute to this discussion.

I had the good fortune to take a power hammer class at the Big Blue Power Hammer school and would highly recomend that for any owner or potential owner of a power hammer. One of my classmates was John Larson, the builder of the Ironkiss machines. During the class, John recommended that the valving and hose sizes be increased on the hammers to change their performance. This was done with one hammer, and it did make a difference in how hard the hammer hit. Since John does custom build his machines it is easier for him to experiment and change from one machine to the next than it is for a higher volume shop. The owner of Big Blue stopped by one evening during the class and in conversation said that his hammers are not designed to take the place of or compete with a large industrial style machine like a Chambursburg or Nazel. They are desigened to handle smaller work, which they do very well. John's machines are based on the industrial equipment and are therefore a heavier machine. They are also designed for a different style of forging.

The flat die forging techniques taught by Clifton Ralph and Steve Parker are adapted from large scale forging. These techniques really require wide dies and a substantial stroke length to be most effective. It also requires quite a bit of power in many cases since the tools must be forced to move through the steel or steel must be forced through narrow gaps in the tools.

I see Big Blue hammers used most often for drawing and "Free Form" forging and they do an excellent job with this type of work. The narrow dies allow for rapid displacement of metal and since the metal is not constrained by tools, less power is needed to create the finished form. However, the narrow dies are not conducive to working with tools.

When comparing these two hammers, keep in mind that the Ironkiss is designed as a flat die utility hammer and is built to work well with lots of different tooling configurations. The Big Blue is marketed heavily for "Free Form" forging which is completly different and therefore has different requirements in machine design and construction. Both hammers are good tools. The question really comes down to what you as a user want to do. Having used both tools, and given MY style of forging, I would choose an Ironkiss if money was no object. Keep in mind that if this is your first hammer, you may not have your own style yet so without a doubt your work will adapt to the capabilities of the hammer.

I would highly recommend that you contact both companies and have them give you the specifics for their machines. They are friendly competitors and would probably willingly offer you their opinion of their competition.

Patrick

I know you said you had plenty of air, but I would make sure you have enough to run what ever hammer you buy. I have been ask to demo on a few utility hammers and they eat air. I would talk to owners of each kind you are looking at and see how much air they use. It was very frusting to have to stop and wait on the air to build up. I have friends who got hammers only to find out they don't have a heavy enough electical service to run the compressor they need.

I want to buy a utility hammer, new or used. No power hammer experience yet, but lots of anvil work. Work up to 2" stock. I have plenty of air but worry about noise. Any suggestions or offers?

Jump to post # 60 for direct answers to this question.

Like so many now days, i'm having to part with many prized tools. I've got a shop full of equipment to peddle. Do you guys have any recommendations on where i should start posting my stuff? Power Hammer, Ironworker, Welders, etc. I'm in the Atlanta area. Thank you.