Ethan Yap

21 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

The search built into these forums is a "known bad one".  You may have much better luck using your browser's search and including iforgeiron.com as one of the search term.   I just googled:   flame length iforgeiron.com     and saw several promising hits.

Yeah I tried that before, tried it again and still can't find that post. Frosty says it's not important though, so that's good enough for me

20 hours ago, Frosty said:

I only call it like I see it. Making excuses won't alter my opinion. Taking issue with my opinion doesn't mean much to me. To alter my opinions you have to actually SHOW me I'm wrong or there's a better one for me to adopt. I cherish people who point out my mistakes, they're very valuable to me. 

Fair enough then. That already makes you better than 99% of the internet. Anyway, my question's been answered and I'm not here to flatter or argue so I'll just thank you for all the information you've posted on this forum and be on my way

18 hours ago, (M) said:

Lol i just googled plibro pilcast 31 and got the temp rating.  Google is our best friend! As long as what you have is a castable refractory it should work(with the temp rating i saw).  

Oh yeah I've read a lot about refractories and how to cast/trowel them on here and elsewhere, but it's all about satanite, kiln washes, zirconia, ITC-100, and how to rigidise ceramic wool. I just needed to check if Plicast behaves the same way. I'd already checked the temp rating, just needed to know it can be mixed the same way as satanite etc. Thanks for the info!

16 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Since most people find little reason to turn a burner on full blast, the flame for a box forge can be measured for length at a maximum of 20 PSI gas pressure and that can be used for a good height measurement in box forges. You want the length to be at least two-inches beyond secondary flames. No practical forge can avoid tertiary flames, so construct and tune your forge's burner well enough to avoid making them.

Thanks! I was having trouble with that because there's been a delay in the propane delivery. My boss (not really, the tenant I mentioned earlier) is trying to sort it out. I'd planned to do as you say, measure the flame, but since the gas didn't (and hasn't) arrived, I'm just going to have to estimate the length

38 minutes ago, (M) said:

I know what youre saying, but a 30 minute skim throught forges 101 would solve all your questions.  Or most of them.  

I probably read the flame length thing in one of the 101 threads, since those make up probably 90% of my reading on this forum. But the search function didn't turn anything up, and I don't want to look through the haystack again, for a needle that someone already told me doesn't exist

I really wish I could have posted data, but I'm here because I couldn't find any. I have a safety sheet, but no instructions of any kind. I'll just pray it works the same as the regular cement I'm used to, with the exception of needing to be dried out and 'baked'

As I admitted to Frosty, I did skip over the burner to cubic inch ratio stuff. I only take issue with how he assumes that means I didn't read at all.

43 minutes ago, (M) said:

Who'd a thought you could make a forge better than any you can buy for ~$200! 

Ah, i so wish I lived in America  I would have had my forge up and running 6 years ago if I did (yes I knew nothing about gas forges just 3 months ago. I wanted coal)

17 hours ago, Frosty said:

You haven't done any of the homework. When you say "I read somewhere here that. . . " means you didn't understand what that person was talking about.

Hey. come on, that's not fair. I've read almost the whole textbook, but skipped one chapter and only because I had an answer key. I'm only asking now because I didn't make or understand the answer key, since it's just a list of multiple choice answers. Now I did intentionally skip the chapter, which was wrong I'll admit. But having one question on one topic does not imply that I didn't read all the other chapters. Besides, the conversation with Gameco was "Is this suitable for a 1 cubic foot *internal* volume?" "Yes". I saw no reason to doubt that answer, until I coincidentally came across conflicting information. I say again, I intentionally skipped that information before because I already 'knew' the answer.

You're right that I didn't understand the thing about ideal flame length. That's why I went looking for it again, and failing that, I asked about it.

Yes I know how to calculate volume. If I didn't see the numbers clearly not tallying, I wouldn't have thought to ask the question. I had one guy tell me "these burners are enough for 1 cubic foot" and then everyone else saying "these burners are about enough for a 0.2 cubic foot forge". And  that's why I'm here to clarify.

Anyway, I more or less finished building the outer shell out of sheet metal a few hours ago. After all the insulation goes in, the internal dimensions will be 8x6x12", for 576 cubic inches. There will be a 101.25 cubic inch fire brick in there to rest pieces on, and 3 more to shrink the volume as needed, down to 171 cubic inches. But based on your recommendations, I doubt I'll ever need all 4 at once, so with 3 bricks, the volume will be 272.25 cubic inches

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Smoke isn't what can kill you and others in the building, you NEED "CO" detector / alarms if you're going to burn gas. CO stands for "Carbon Monoxide."

I understand. The place is properly ventilated and always has been. The problem was smoke detectors, not toxic gases. It was essentially a technicality. Now we're able to avoid the detectors. Besides, the owner (well, tenant, but a level closer to the owner than me) said he will handle the logistics. Edit: For future convenience, you don't need to explain any technical chemical terms. I have actually done my homework, and I have *some* background in that sort of thing anyway

The problem was because of optical smoke detectors. The ventilation system could handle pretty much all waste gases and particles, problem is that visible particles like smoke would trigger the fire suppression system. The new system will be able to get right up close to a potential coal forge so no smoke escapes

Thanks man, will do! I'll probably know if something's gone wrong by tonight (it's 0830 now), but I've got huge amounts of excess material so I can screw up many times before there's a real problem

6 hours ago, Latticino said:

I find it very hard to believe that they are recommending two of these burners as being adequate for 1 cubic foot of forge volume (at least to get up to any kind of acceptable heat), but I suppose it is possible.

I was pretty specific, but knowing what I know now 3 months later, POL doesn't refer to a single size of fitting but a standard, so maybe I shouldn't be taking what he says as the gospel truth

I wanted to start out with coal, but we had problems with ventilation and smoke and dust. Recently we've upgraded the system though, so maybe a coal forge will appear soon. It's indoors since this country doesn't have enough land to do anything outdoors, where you can't stack land use on top of itself. Already everyone involved is paying an exorbitant amount for the use of space. Regardless, I'll talk to the guy about reducing the size, or making our own burners to supplement

[Unnecessary quote removed. You don't need to quote when you're answering the immediately preceding comment.]

Thanks for the reply!

It's going to be 2" all round of ceramic blanket, sealed by 1/4-1/2 of refractory cement. I know the forge needs to be at least 8" wide by 12" long for the size of work we (I'm not the only one using it) plan to do. It's not super advanced I don't think, but it's pretty large. I might be able to get away with 8" on all sides (Edit: still 1' long , I messed up. So 8x8x12). The height is because I read somewhere on this forum that a forge ought to be taller than it is wide because the burner needs a certain amount of space in front of it to properly form a flame envelope. Something along those lines. 

I'm pretty sure they're hard bricks. The options I was given were SK34, SK36, SK38, and Insulating. When I tried to confirm the SKxx were hard, the reply was (paraphrasing) "all fire bricks are made of very hard material". I'm not sure if it's the standard of English in my country, or lack of product knowledge, but they're are specifically  a refractory company so...

The bricks will not be part of the forge. They'll just be sitting in there to prevent the flame from impinging directly on the refractory. The forge will most likely be cycled once a day, tops, which I think is pretty standard.

Ah, speaking of doors, I forgot. We plan to make our own doors, which will be the same as the forge walls, but as a separate piece. Steel, ceramic blanket, sealed with refractory. The door on the back will be closed 90% of the time (that's right, right? I don't need an exhaust hole on both ends, only the front?). We'll also have another rear door with a hole in it so we can heat the middle part of longer pieces.

1 hour ago, JHCC said:

Depends on the size of the burner, the shape of the forge, and the angle between the burner and the floor. Without knowing that, we can't answer your question.

If you haven't yet, please READ THIS NOW!!!

That was actually the first thing I read haha

[Then please put your location in your profile and reread the section on the Quote feature.]

The burners are 1/2". They are the Gameco burners I mentioned. This is the link to the page since I'm not sure what other dimensions affect the ideal height. It's a rectangular forge, so the burner will be perpendicular to the floor

[Commercial link removed]

I've been doing research and I think I'm ready, but some information sources have gotten lost. There are 3 things I need to confirm before I get down to it

1. There is an ideal height of forge (distance between burner mouth and floor). I learned this about a month ago, but I can't find the source post to find out exactly what it is. IIRC it was about 1 foot?

2. I was told by Gameco Artisan Supplies that their set of two 1/2" burners will be suitable for a 1 cubic foot internal volume forge. But I just found a (3 year old) post yesterday that says a 3/4" burner should heat only 350 cubic inches for forge welding. I don't expect to be forge welding for quite some time, and I haven't been able to find data on if this set up will get hot enough for non-welding forging. I did kinda sorta anticipate this problem and I have 3 fire bricks (and 1 more that my pieces will sit on while heating) that I plan to just kind of leave in the forge to take up space. Is that a viable band aid?

3. Can I treat Plibrico Plicast 31 the same way as standard satanite? I can't reasonably get satanite in my country and this was the closest substitute. It's a castable refractory is all I know for sure. Should I just mix it with water until it achieves the oatmeal-like consistency and apply it like any cement?

Hi, I'm not sure if this is the place to post a new question, but I've got a relatively simple one.

I want to build a cuboid shaped forge,  about1 foot on each side, but narrower than tall. I have a guy who's going to assemble the metal parts for free, except the gas equipment. I plan to line it with ceramic blanket, sealed with Plibrico Plicast 31 in place of satanite. Satanite is unavailable in Singapore, and prohibitively expensive to  get from America or Australia.

My question is, for such a setup, can I just stick these in the top of the forge, or is there some pitfall I'm missing? If I understand correctly, I need a holder, which is just a ring with 3 screws to hold the burner in place, and the tip of the burner should be somewhere in the ceramic layer.

8 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

I've been forging for 37 years now and have never needed a forge that large.  You do realize that you will be paying many times the cost of building several more forges just to heat that one doing small work?  Forges are a consumable and will require being rebuilt with use.

The swordmaker I worked under had a vertical bore electric heat treating furnace with computerized controls and inert atmosphere to heat treat his blades. Of course he used alloys that required the computerized controls.  Not knowing what alloys you will be using makes it just a guess you know.

Have you read up on sword heat treating in Hrisoulas' books: "The Complete Bladesmith, the Master Bladesmith, The Pattern-Welded Blade" ?

I'm only going to be heating the first 30-40cm of it most of the time. I plan to put in a removable wall of refractory, ceramic wool, and steel which will in theory make the forge function the same as a small forge with some stuff sticking out the back. How consumable are they? They last in the order of years with moderate use, right? I know gas fittings are 5 years for hoses and 10 for metal parts.

I'll only be working with carbon steel for the foreseeable future. I definitely don't need computerised controls, just a way to keep it at about 260 degrees celsius for tempering and critical for hardening. I'm under the impression that you need a forge the full length of the blade (maybe excluding the tang) to harden effectively. Is that accurate?

I've done absolutely no research on ovens, but do you think you could give me a little to start off? What's the estimated cost of a simple oven  that does what I said above?

I haven't read that book, but I'll order one if I can find it for cheap. It'll cost me over $40 to ship it over here

What would you recommend I do? Do you think it's reasonable to ask the welder if we can do a small setup first, with a contract for me to upgrade as needed? Do you think that would be seriously screwing him over?

21 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

The problem here is unlike a solid fuel forge, you generally cannot just build a larger or smaller fire. In the case of a gasser, a large gasser will heat small stock just fine, but it isn’t very efferent. A small forge is more efferent for small stock, and a large forge is needed for large stock. 

Yes, I'll only be running the first burner for a long while, with an internal wall, of the same construction as the main forge walls. In theory, it should perform at the same efficiency as a small  forge, just that there's some extra, cold, forge parts sticking out the back. Is there anything I'm missing here?

I've been planning a propane forge for a couple of months now. (After years of lurking on this an other forums) I live in Singapore, so there are a lot of compromises I have to make. One of them being the lack of space. What I mean by that is I have to build in someone else's space, and part of the deal is I build a forge that I won't outgrow as my skill progresses. The guy runs a metalworking business and the forge will be an upgrade to his space, in the makerspace part of his business where he lets people use equipment, so they also have to not outgrow it. He's a welder btw.

What I have so far is this:

Size: 30cm x 30cm x 100cm cuboid shape,

Insulation: Ceramic wool and sealed with refractory cement. I can't get satanite here unless I import it. What I plan to use is Plibrico Plicast 31, available in no less than 25kg bags.

Fuel source: 50kg propane tank

Gas fittings expanded to 3 burners probably

We're going to stick some ceramic wool and cement on a metal plate to partition the forge, so it'll only be 30x30x40cm most of the time, for years until someone gets good enough  to forge swords, then we'll need a super long forge to harden and temper. 

Now for the problems I'm having. I've been advised that you absolutely cannot harden or temper a sword in a horizontal forge, because it will droop as you take it out. How true is this? Because this will mean I can't future proof a forge like this, and what's probably going to happen is we'll build a vertical forge later on. I don't know if the welder will agree to this, because I'm getting a deal on his space usage to build a really nice forge.

Would it be at all possible to use these small burners on a large forge such as this? Or am I going to have to spend like a thousand dollars on burners? Gameco has a larger size, but it's expensive af. I was expecting to have 3 burners set up at 25cm intervals, with the forge heating up slower than most. Or will I straight up not reach temperature?

Can anyone help me with this?