tmone

Tmone,
There has been a lot of good comment here, (I haven't read them all, but most of them) as far as your research goes might i recommend the following website
The Countryside Agency
type blacksmith in the search box at the top right and you will get a return of several ebook in pdf format about blacksmithing. For your purposes these should be great references, and best of all they are free to view!

As far as the interface and stuff goes, I have no advice as I've been so far out of the gaming loop that my PS2 has become nothing more than a DVD player for the past four or five years ...

Armour is not only held with only sandard rivets in holes though. Sometimes there is a leather strip which runs down the inside of a series of articulated lames and each lame is riveted to the strap, which addsflexibility. Or the hole the rivet is placed in is a long rectangle, so the loosely set rivet (with a washer on the inside peened end) can swivel up and down,this is, for example, used on gauntlet wrists.
armouring is more difficult than some other blacksmithing "categories" and could be say, a specialty, like how you can in some games be a magician who is specialized in making illusions or in making things dissapear or something, maybe blacksmiths could specialize in armouring once they are at a higher level?

First of all, you might want to seperate different areas of smithing into specific skills the smith would learn or focus on. Like weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, tool smithing, etc etc. Make a stat chart for each of the seperated areas (you might want to make a lot ) and allow the smith to gain experience in the certain areas based on how many projects they've worked on in that specific field of smithing. This would allow a smith to specialize and become better in certain areas so creating an item would become easier and quicker.

Second, you might want to add a difficulty indicator for each item someone would want to create. Not only would this be an indicator of whether one should attempt to create the intended item or not, but based on the above stat system, they could also have the computer create the item automatically if they wish to, with a certain failure percentage of course. The smiths overall experience and knowledge in the needed area of smithing would play into how successful an automatic forging would be. This way, a player wouldn't have to craft a simple hook if their smith already has the experience to create a large and intricate gate. This further expresses the idea of growth in a character and shows just how far their smith has come.

Concerning the automatic creation, make sure there are plenty of items that can be crafted that the player MUST do a manual forging in order to create the intended item. In this way, certain items would be far more difficult to make, far more time consuming, but in the end turn out being more valueable and allow greater rewards (whether that be experience for the smith, or perhaps an NPC striker).

An idea I just came up with now would be computer controlled strikers. These NPC's would of course not be as skilled as the smith themselves, but would level up in a similar way and would have similar stats. However things like hammer precision, strength, endurance, and probably the most important thing, repeating the smith's blows with the same accuracy. This would allow a player to have a helper if none of their friends are online to help out. A project would not have to be postponed simply because someone might be missing.

Also, for large projects and other such things, have a minimum number of smiths that need to be working on the project at once in order to create the desired item. Such items would be like fences of a certain size, or gates or memorials even. Perhaps even sculptural works could be incorporated. This way there is a greater sense of teamwork, as well as a greater necessity when someone wants to attempt a certain project.

Finally, allow the player to display just how artistic they truly are and allow them to just hammer away at a piece of metal and do sort of a custom forging. This could be good for players just to have fun and see what they can make simply by toying around with pieces of metal.

Well, those are all my ideas for now. Hope this game is released, I'd definetly be willing to play it ^^. Good luck!

1.) A beginning smith would have a higher miss ratio and may damage the piece.

2.) A beginning smith would have lower skill and might not be able to heat treat material until they gained more experience.

3.) An experienced smith could get more work done in less time than an inexperienced smith.

4.) Smiths have different strength levels. Depending on the character's strength and constitution he/she may not be able to wield a 5 pound hammer effectively. You could adjust their speed and accuracy accordingly.

5.) If two smiths were working together, production could go up significantly.

6.) If the smith were to make more decorative pieces, he might fetch higher prices, but at the cost of time.

7.) If the smith were wounded or tired, his/her productivity could go down as well.

These are just some general things to consider. I like Glenn's suggestion to you: If you REALLY want to get some insight, pick up a hammer and start pounding some hot iron!

Good luck on the game.

rvb

Archie, thank you for the armouring info and the pics. That is very helpful.

So could it possibly just be broken down to these stages:

1) flatten an ingot into a sheet.
2) form on stakes, reheat as needed.
3) grind/polish to finish

I will do some research on this but if you can answer any of these questions that would be great.

I imagine the armor is made from multiple sheets and fastened together in some way when worn?

Do you reheat the entire sheet or just specific parts of it as you hammer those locations?

It seems armoring is going to be a tougher technique to implement...

First, don't make things TOO complicated. Yeah, there are a lot of steps in getting prepared to forge an item, but not ALL of them need to be followed exactly.

Instead of having a place to mine for fuel, have an NPC merchant that's already done the work. (Although you could leave the option open for players who DO wish do mine or prepare their own fuel)

Just got a good idead and don't wanna forget it. Each person should start off with very little skill. Only being able to forge basic, low quality items. As they progress, they "learn" to make new objects. This could be done by having a journal or notebook that has the techniques in it for making a weapon or armor. As the player "levels up" in smithing skill, a new entry is automatically added to the journal describing exactly what steps the smith must take in order to make the new item. It might be a good idea to do away with fire managment, as important as it is, and focus on just the hammering part. The ease of moving the metal could be determined by the length of time left in the fire, which has to be lit before each forging session.

Ok, now for the forging process. Picture this, your screen shows a piece of iron in the fire, maybe just a 1 inch square bar about a foot long, as an example. when you want to take it out, double click it. The tongs are shown taking the iron out of the fire, and the screen shifts over to the anvil, with the bar sitting on it, no tongs holding it (to make the gameplay a little easier in terms of visibility and ease of play. The work is done on only two demensions, for now at least. So you have this orange/yellow bar, and you look at the diagram in your journal, showing the steps required to make, say a dagger. Single click to draw out (make the area longer and thinner), double click to upset (make the ares thicker and shorter). The steps could be a combination of sketches and text, to make things clearer for the player. The steps in making a dagger could be something like:

1) Draw out the blade (with an image showing a series of single clicks [represented by a symbol of some sort] along the upper part of the bar.
2) Upset the pommel (shown by another series of double clicks along the very back of the bar
3)Put a bevel on each side of the blade (shown by single clicks along each side of the blade section to form the edge)

As the steps are followed, the image of the bar changes to reflect what is being done, ending in a finished blade. Further work could be incorperated, such as sharpening the blade, polishing it on a stone, etc.

A good thing to do, would be to make sure that the programming only allows pieces to be made by smiths with the appropriate skill. If a smith tries to make something that he/she has not learned, the iron becomes junk, and must be scrapped. And don't make it TOO long between forging level up's, or make sure the player has a few different items he/she could make at each level. (Swords, axes, knives, daggers, spears, helmets, shields, etc.) This way, they aren't just making the same thing over and over and over. I'm sure I could come up with a whole lot more. If you have any questions or need more help, feel free to message me.

Your angle could change from side on when drawing out to bird's eye view for the bevels, then side on with the piece vertical of pommel upsetting, or whichever angle suits what you are doing. Once you are satisfied with how you drew out the bar or whichever stage you are on, you could click a "next stage" button and go from there. You could also have the piece getting cooler as you go, so you have a repeatable "reheating stage" which you can do when and however many times you want.

When you acquire a new tool, there is always a learning curve. And if you have not had some experience with the more basic tools, the more advanced tools do not work nearly as well.

For instance, if you have not experienced hot to move metal with a hand hammer, the sledge hammer has a much longer learning curve. You need to learn how much effort is needed to make the sledge hammer effictive and not just smash metal.

A team of strikers is the next step up, but all should be at the same level of skill in using sledges. Striking is a learning experience as there is both a rythum and the same effort of impact involved. If someone new joins the striking team with no experience the rythum is way off and you bump hammers. The experienced smith does not use a sledge, but simply indicates where he wants the strikers blow to land and with the force the smith dictates.

There always those tools that are found that look wonderful, and as blacksmiths we bring them home (sometimes at great expense) only to find that they are not complete and no not work, are not suitable for the job, or that (dare I say it) we just do not have the experience for operating the tool properly.

Making armour, making knives, making swords (advanced knife making skills) are all specialities of blacksmithing. You could go as far as giving the horse from the game greater power is the blacksmith were to shoe him. It is a timed power as the horse has to be shod every 3-4 weeks to be kept in good condition. Farriers help us out here.

There are so many ways you can make this game interesting

OK "medieval European" background:

1 The smith in medieval europe was VERY UNLIKELY to be involved with the mining and smelting of ore, iron/steel has been a trade good since the iron age---cf "currency bars". So have they have to buy/barter for the correct materials---and they need to know what they should use---the better stuff is harder to get/more expensive!

2: you're talking about nearly 1000 years from primitive bag bellows to water powered gang bellows so nicely shown in De Re Metallica (a great source of pictures for an "industrial" setting)

3: the smith working alone as a single person is about as accurate as a surgeon today being the only person in the opperating room doing major surgery. The smith will have strikers, bellows thralls, apprentices fetching charcoal, etc.

4: a "medieval" smith making a blade from start to finish was just not done either. He would forge/heat treat the blade (with the help of his staff) then send it to the grinders who would grind and polish it and then they would send it to the hilters who would make the fittings and put the guard/grip/pommel on it and then to the sheathmaking folks---*seperate* crafts, seperate medieval guilds, Note that it might also go to another different shop for embellishment/engraving/gilding, etc.

(Note that the japanese swords are made in much the same way with a series of different skilled craftsmen working on a blade from start to finish)


Now tidbits of "gamecraft" Do they get the right alloy? The better alloys are harder to work---higher carbon steels will burn or crack if worked outside of their temperature limit. Alloys require different quenching mediums, (use of a magnet to determing the curie point in heat treating would be a "master level secret"), the alloy needs to be quenched in the proper medium or catastrophic failure may occur. Do they draw temper after heat treating? Do you want to put in differential tempering for "better" blades? Do you really want to throw a curve in and have some wootz cakes available---takes very different forging and heat treat skills; but can make a superior blade!

If I was trying to do it semi "right" I would have the sword forge set up and they have to place the blade in it and get the right part in the "hot spot" and then make sure they only work on the hot region---a misstrike on a cold region can result in starting over. (or as I say to my students "Hit it where it's hot; *not* where it's not!"; or how about the famous "you hold the cold end and hit the hot end and get it RIGHT next time")

BTW you can build a one firebrick forge that fits into a coffee can and uses a small propane plumbing torch to provide heat---good only for small work but I have *NEVER* found somone who could not figure a way to get a forge to use if they *wanted* to. Though I had one student/friend who lost more dorm roomates that way---something about the scrap metal under the bed and the workbench where his desk used to be...

Thomas

Thanks for the feedback. I will read them and reply after dinner... :)

Tmone

I play a whole lot of games. What you are suggesting sounds like fun.

Here's my two cents -

1. Have a kind of "tech tree" but for tools. When I started, I had a small ball pein hammer. Now I have a big crate full. Every new tool means I can make new things, some of which are tools which I need to make more things, and so on. You can have a tech tree for skills (forge weld, tempering, etc) running parallel.

2. I think you may want to have more categories of metal than just iron. Historically, steel was made by heating iron to a certain temperature and allowing carbon to soak in. Perhaps being able to make better steel by using up coal and iron? Then you could have better steel, at the cost of time.
Perhaps some fantasy metals like mithril, and so on? Another way of improving metal was case hardening, where a metal object is encased in carbon-rich material and heated for a day or two. All ideas.

3. A lot of smithing is dependent on timing. Put the steel in the fire, let it heat, then whilst it is heating, gather your tools, then pull the steel out of the fire and work. If you bring it out too early, it won't work as easy. If you leave it too late, it burns and is ruined.

I hope some of this helps.
If I can help further, please let me know.

yeah, i see I'll have to read up more on how armor is crafted and those stakes...

Hopefully I can simplify it, I want to keep the steps managable.

also, in the whole potions and alchemy thing, you need to be able to make various fluxes, so some kind of borax, wood ash mixes, and other more aggressive fluxes. And also, you need to be able to heat the metal up to different temps. I used to play computer games and too often in the games and movies the "smith" is just forging at a dull red, or they quench and continue beating on black metal (shame on them, they will wet the bed for pounding cold metal!)
Oh! more ideas: You also need to have various fuels like different woods, charcoal of different woods, different veins of coal, and dried corn, and manure. You should try at least once each fuel you plan to put in, and the different fluxes and heats. Merry Forging!

Why not build a forge and get some actual first hand experience in blacksmithing to better understand what your trying to put into the game.

The heat coming from the forge, the heat coming from the hot iron, how much energy is needed to move metal are all things you need to experience. The fire does not cooperate all the time, it has to be managed. Burning wood, burning charcoal, and burning coal is each different and requires different fire managment. And then there are the days no matter what you do, things don't work, even though you are doing things the very same way as you did them the day before.

Blacksmithing is like swimming in water. You can have a lot of theory, you can gain much knowledge on the subject, but once you actually swallow a gulp of water, it becomes a personal experience. And no one said it was fresh water, what if it was a gulp of salt water you swallowed?

Let us know what part of the world your from and we will try to find a local blacksmithing group that can show you first hand about the craft. The first time you hit hot metal is an experience. Your first project is a treasure you will remember the rest of your life.

OK, here goes. Hollis started you out with some very good things to think about ( HWooldridge ). Do you have a location in the world that this game will take place ? In midievil times, the fuel for the fire would almost assuredly have been charcoal ( this ain't briquettes ). Building a fire would be a skill. Maintaining the fire with bellows would be a skill ( although charcoal really doesn't require the same skill level as coal does ). As Hollis stated, hammer control is one of the really major things to acquire in order to get the result you want in forged goods. You will also have holes to be punched, slots to be slit, top tools, bottom tools, making tongs ( and virtually any other hand tools used in smithing ), hot cuts, drawing out, upsetting.....the list can go on for a while. These are all either skills used or tools used. Let us know what your thoughts are.

Hey Tmone, I remember the original "Leisure Suite Larry" game way back. I sounds like you could create a stratagey game on the same premise.
Find, collect & complete a tasks type of thing, all placed in progressively different settings, one stage building on another.

First the perspective smith would travel the country side in searchof knowledge ofter finding this strange new element Iron ore,. Interacting with different people collecting his/her skills in smithing and facing challenges.
Also collecting the "alchemy or potions" to create various alloys of iron, pewter, bronze, etc.
Each person has a small piece of knowledge. as he gathers those pieces of knowledge it fits together puzzle like to create a sum of knowledge greater than the parts.
All the different ways to work (forge/heat treat) metals for swords or daggers vs hammers & chisels vs. household items is Always tied into or based on real scientific data so the game player is learning as well.
Then as the perspective smith is aquiring the magical knowledge of the mystical ores he accumulates tools to work his "magic" with these ores & alloys. The tools would start out as basic a lump of meteor iron ore to start as his anvil. again tying in an air of mystery/magic to the metal that fell from the heavens.... He can melt down smaller chunks in a cooking fire to fashion a hammer head with either a wood or a claw bone of a dragon to make a handle. Can also discover different elements for hotter fires and how to use them.
All these elements he must find as he travels the country side, seeking to be the great SMITH.
When he has attained the level at which he has completed the tasks of anvil and hammer, he then starts on learning to work metals till he can "forge weld" metals at will.(far beyond me, grin) The sky is the limit for an adventure theme after that, He can forge common place Items as the plow to revolutionize farming or forge weapons of war or defense to influence world power struggles. In his travels he could learn to forge special hunting weapons to pierce dragon scales or travel the sea and create tools and weapons for the mariners and to defeat sea monsters. Or he could forge chisels for cutting stone for Art work like the "Venus" or "David" maybe stone cutting tools for building pyramids...etc. An other way would be to show how all others trades branched out from or rely on the smith for there tools.

Again each stage he would collect more or different iron ore as well as secret alchemy or potions and techniques to work the ore. These formulas and techniques (based all on fact/ science of forging & metal working) could be gotten or learned for a whole bunch of crazy characters he meets in his travels. There could be alot of fun in character development!
All of this could culminate in an Ultimate Goal of some sort for the
"The King of all Trades"

I hope you have a great time creating the Game and you learn alot about the smith truely being the King of all Trades
There are so many knowledgable people here getting intimate details of A smiths work and forging should be easy.
I'm still looking for meteor iron ore for my new magic anvil ,Grin!!!!
Good Luck
TIM

Interesting subject...my sons are avid gamers but I am not (although I do watch them on occasion).

Bad things that can happen: 1. The gamer is making a sword blade and it burns up because it was left in the forge too long at too high a temp. 2. A clinker forms because the smith took too much time to make an item and the fire gets cool so the gamer has to clean the fire.

Skills: Hit the same place twice with the pointer (hammer) so the part comes out straight. Improper hammering makes an item crooked. You could also double team with a striker so two players could participate with the same concept.

The ore idea is a good subplot - the smith puts the ore in a crucible and melts it to get the base material.

I may think of some other things but other folks can chime in.

First off I hope it is ok to post this here, if not I appologize. I hope some of you are gamers to some degree and can provide me with some feedback. I don't know a whole lot about smithing and am currently investigating it so I thought what would be better than to ask actual blacksmiths...here goes.

I am a hobbyist programmer and my team is planning to design a game which includes the art of smithing as it was around medieval times. We want it to be involved, not just a "click and watch" type of thing which some of you may have seen in some roleplaying games. It has to be translated in a fun way. So a direct simulation of every detail probably isn't what we want. Things will have to be sped up, steps may have to be omitted or combined with other steps in some way, etc.

What I want to know is, if you had to translate your craft into a game and make it work in a gameplay sense how would you do it? What are things you would have to stay aware of in a strategy sense, maybe temperature of the forge and item being worked on? What are the minimum tools you could break it down to?

Is it possible to make smithing anything other than a "click and watch" type of game? I personally believe it can be made into something so much better but I need help finding what that should be.

Some info on the game:
The game is sort of a FPS with strategy elements. There will be two teams competing against eachother. Teams will collect ore from mines and create weapons and armor. Other artisan skills may be included such as alchemy to make potions.

Thank you for reading. I eagerly await any feedback.

"Traditional" is a very loaded term in smithing---traditional to when? 1930's, 1830's, 1030's, 30's, -30's, -1030's ????

I didn't realize iforgeiron.com was a site. I just found this forum from google. I'll check those links and see what I can learn

Thanks for the info guys.

I am looking to get some information on blacksmithing. I don't know a whole lot about the steps involved to get from raw metal to finished product. The reason I am asking is because I have always been fascinated by and admired the work produced by blacksmiths. I basically am looking for a generic workflow of what you do to produce an item. I'm assuming this may be drastically different depending on the material used and the item being crafted. If anyone feels they can break it down for me that would be great.

I'm especially interested in traditional techniques. I realize new technology has probably altered the process to some degree. Also if anyone knows of a good website with info about traditional smithing that would be great as well. This is mostly just to satisfy my own curiousity. I don't plan to actually take up the skill as I lack the time and resources.

Any details would be much appreciated.