Ferrous Beuler Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Today I was reading over and old issue of The Anvil's Ring when I came upon something I've never heard mentioned before. From The Anvil's Ring Volume 7 Number 4, December 1979 I quote; "Samuel Yellin told those of us who worked for him to never use borax as a welding flux. He claimed that the fumes produced are toxic. Frances Whitaker Aspen, Colorado." Comments, views??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 I've heard from the very start of my forging career that you're not supposed to breath the fumes given off from borax, kind of like you're not supposed to breath the fumes when you're welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Check here for Hazard Information on Borax. Sodium borate decahydrate Once again if you don't have a MSDS for every chemical in your shop, GET ONE and read it instead of using it to start the fire in your forge the life you save may be your own. I think I did a blueprint story on Toxicology or Respiratory Protection or something like that you might want to check the archives and if you find it there look here Toxicology part 1 and part 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalMuncher Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 It does smell nasty.....cant be good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 ive never smelled it .... maybee my smeller is broke... or its all them black buggers getting in the way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) Gotta be all da black boogers!!LOL. Woody, thanks for the link. It has some good info. All the years that I used borax in my old taxidermy shop, and never new it was hazzardous. Edited February 25, 2009 by CurlyGeorge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
element Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 What if your borax can was close enough to the flue? It would just suck up the fumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgtwister Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 well it can't be any worse than the hazardest wast i use to clean up and my grandmother washed alot of cloths in the years with it and she lived to 90 so i guess i will hold my breath from now on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Emig Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Borax isn't healthy. They use boric acid as insecticide-borax is some sort of derivative of that. If you buy any flux from sellers get an MSDS sheet-if it's a guy at a hammer in make him get an MSDS or don't buy it. Life is short enough as it is, without being made sick by stuff we drop in our fires. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 the reason it works on Roaches is it has a neg. charge and the Roaches have a Pos. charge ...it cloggs up their vent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 (edited) EVERYTHING is toxic it just varies on how much and how your exposed to it. Think of how many people get killed each year by water! Better give up using *that*! Oxygen is toxic----better not breath any of it! Remember that there is a MSDS for sandbox sand too due to the dangers of silicosis. As things go Borax is pretty harmless with a high LD50 requirement. Note that it's poison_class is 5 the lowest toxicity class there is besides 5S for unrestricted use stuff. 2000-5000mg/kg is consided a LD50 for Borax so I would have to eat apx 1.1 to 2.75 *pounds* of it to have a 50% chance of killing myself. Boric acid is used in eyedrops as well as roach killers and for a real killer look at table salt--sodium and chlorine both HIGHLY TOXIC, of course if you have too little of it in your system you die too. May I suggest folks do not over react; My personal limit for when I should start worrying is when the danger is higher than the danger of driving my car to work each weekday, otherwise it tends to be like straining at gnats while swallowing camels. Remember too that just burning coal produces many toxic fumes including radioactives (coal is a big trap for radionucleides), mercury, CO, etc. Edited February 25, 2009 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 EVERYTHING is toxic it just varies on how much and how your exposed to it. Think of how many people get killed each year by water! Better give up using *that*! Oxygen is toxic----better not breath any of it! Remember that there is a MSDS for sandbox sand too due to the dangers of silicosis. As things go Borax is pretty harmless with a high LD50 requirement. Note that it's poison_class is 5 the lowest toxicity class there is besides 5S for unrestricted use stuff. 2000-5000mg/kg is consided a LD50 for Borax so I would have to eat apx 1.1 to 2.75 *pounds* of it to have a 50% chance of killing myself. Boric acid is used in eyedrops as well as roach killers and for a real killer look at table salt--sodium and chlorine both HIGHLY TOXIC, of course if you have too little of it in your system you die too. May I suggest folks do not over react; My personal limit for when I should start worrying is when the danger is higher than the danger of driving my car to work each weekday, otherwise it tends to be like straining at gnats while swallowing camels. Remember too that just burning coal produces many toxic fumes including radioactives (coal is a big trap for radionucleides), mercury, CO, etc. Thank you Thomas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 I used some boric acid for fleas, I didn't vacuum it up as well as I should of under the computer table. Over time I started to notice that the flesh around my big toe and second toe was starting to peel. It took over 3 years for it to finally heal up. Not that it was painful especially but definitely destroyed the skin some layers deep, anecdotal yes, and its not borax, it was boric acid over the counter from the drug store. And It did say vacuum it up completely which I didn't. It was my fault, but if you are mixing boric acid with your flux just be a bit careful with it. below is a site with the low down on boric acid and stuff. The site I got it off of for fleas says its a "non-pesticide" http://www.pesticide.org/boricacid.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
element Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Ive searched a bit yesterday and read that sheet that bogs just put up and i came to the my own conclution that only the fumes would be of concern, If any. Its probably one of the most harmless things you will ever manipulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I use borax as flux. I am also familiar with msds sheets as well as anyone with a lot of training in their use. Keep them in mind when you do a rather frequent analysis of your shop and what it can not only for you but also to you. both long term and short term. In the msds there is only one mention of what happens when borax is heated. It loses its water. I have no proof but an instinctinve feeling that when is is heated to the level that we use to forge weld it may have other properties not so benign. Woth out doing my own research project on this i take the same precautions I use for many of the visible or not so visible by-products of my work that I feel may in some way harm me. Stay out of the fumes of this product when heated. As I do all the fumes I can see when heated. This also includes smoke from burning wood or other combustibles. And do not forget the denizens that we cannot see. The biggest example of course is carbon monoxide. And the biggest offender in smithing shops is the gas forge. Bottom line prepare for what you may face when working. Think about what yoiu are about to do and how it will affect you or others. Get the information to protect yourself from what you use. And keep msds sheets on file for what you have in the shop. Keep the original containers or properly label allo containers as to there contents. Do a srvey of your shop with a critical eye and think through what you use and when did you last use it. If you have had something that may be harmful for twenty years and hove not used it find a proper way for disposal. It is hard not to ramble on this matter but I will cut it here...be safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I'm not sure borax is poisonous in solid form; the fumes might be but I know when the stuff is molten, it will go through soft fiber refractory like puke through a prom dress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) Whatever you think of borax, it sure as shootin' ain't as bad as Col. Hrisoulas's "Steel Glue," which contains fluorite (calcium fluoride). I kinda like the smell, though I do my best not to smell it. :) Edited February 27, 2009 by mod07 typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverDamForge Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Ive searched a bit yesterday and read that sheet that bogs just put up and i came to the my own conclution that only the fumes would be of concern, If any. Its probably one of the most harmless things you will ever manipulate.Pretty benign compared to coal dust and smoke, eh? Coal Dust (less than 5% SiO2) " Protective clothing should be worn to prevent any possibility of skin contact." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 As an industrial safety guy, I would say that the 20 Mule Team is a very non scary MSDS. You can almost always find a limit for airborne dust of 5 to 10 Mg/m cubed of air, for any dust. Toxic stuff like asbestos will be much lower. Crystaline silica will be much lower. Always avoid inhaling dust, as it is not good for you. As ThomsP notes this is not a very dangerous material. I would expect that if used in a properly vented coal forge the fume will go up the stack. I expect that you get exposed to far more dangerous materials, in higher concentration every time you fill your gas tank. and if you are a smoker you are self exposing to hundreds times more compounds and level of toxic materials. Safety guy out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Beuler Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 EVERYTHING is toxic it just varies on how much and how your exposed to it. Think of how many people get killed each year by water! Better give up using *that*! Oxygen is toxic----better not breath any of it! Remember that there is a MSDS for sandbox sand too due to the dangers of silicosis. As things go Borax is pretty harmless with a high LD50 requirement. Note that it's poison_class is 5 the lowest toxicity class there is besides 5S for unrestricted use stuff. 2000-5000mg/kg is consided a LD50 for Borax so I would have to eat apx 1.1 to 2.75 *pounds* of it to have a 50% chance of killing myself. Boric acid is used in eyedrops as well as roach killers and for a real killer look at table salt--sodium and chlorine both HIGHLY TOXIC, of course if you have too little of it in your system you die too. May I suggest folks do not over react; My personal limit for when I should start worrying is when the danger is higher than the danger of driving my car to work each weekday, otherwise it tends to be like straining at gnats while swallowing camels. Remember too that just burning coal produces many toxic fumes including radioactives (coal is a big trap for radionucleides), mercury, CO, etc. Thank you for the clarity Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggeo Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) I have done different types of welding over time. I recently braze welded sheet metal in a under ventilated area and inhaled a strong dose of the fumes caused by the brass rod that was pre-coated with a white flux, I assume it was a borax based flux. I have been experiencing a on and off cough and irritation ever since about 7 days now. Will this clear up by itself or should I seek medical treatment? Thanks Greg G Edited June 23, 2009 by mod07 COlor edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Maple Forge Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) I have done different types of welding over time. I recently braze welded sheet metal in a under ventilated area and inhaled a strong dose of the fumes caused by the brass rod that was pre-coated with a white flux, I assume it was a borax based flux. I have been experiencing a on and off cough and irritation ever since about 7 days now. Will this clear up by itself or should I seek medical treatment? Thanks Greg G If it were me, I'd rush to a hospital! You might want to do the same. Edited June 23, 2009 by mod07 quote edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Absolutely!! Get checked out!!! This IS NOT a joke!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggeo Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) Thank you Black Forge and Dan OHare, I went to Kaiser this morning as you both suggested and explained what I did to cause the effects to myself, they checked me a few ways and did a chest Xray and said things look Ok and that there may be a slight amount of inflammation with the lining of my lungs, but for the most part it should clear up... thanks again guys, I found you through a Google post. By the way I enjoy what you do for a living... I'm a dental tech, but enrolled into a welding Class at Pierce collage before switching to Dental... Regards Greg G Edited June 23, 2009 by mod07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 May very well have been the zinc in brass causing the problem too. Have you looked up Metal Fume Fever? Zinc inhalation can cause flue like symptoms and even pnumonia and death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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