BillyBones Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 New studies on a chisel found on the Iberian peninsula have pushed the age of hardened steel being used in Europe back a couple hundred years. This chisel dates to 900BC, 2900 years ago, and predates Roman use of steel by almost 1000 years. This also predates when smiths were first thought to be able to heat treat steel as well. https://www.livescience.com/bronze-age-craftspeople-tempered-steel-more-than-1000-years-before-the-romans-did-it Anyway, just found it interesting and figured i would share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 That is fascinating thanks for the article. I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.~ Semper Paratus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 I read the actual academic article that was linked in the popular article and was disappointed in the lack of detail about the tests of various materials. Basically, it said, "We tried stone tools and they didn't work." IMO that is not enough detail. There are lots of kinds of stone tools and some types of stone will clearly not work, e.g. flint/chert. However, there are some types of stone such as jade or amphibolite (aka "green stone") that are VERY tough and were used in the late stone age and were shaped by grinding, not knapping. I suspect that these woud have worked as well or better than the steel chisel they spoke of. A really good way to destroy a steel rock hammer is to pound on an amphibolite outcrop. GNM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 I'm thinking that article was written by grad students or a bit farther up the chain. It not only demonstrated a lack of knowledge about stone tools, George describes it showed a lack of knowledge about bloomery iron. A bloomery produces everything between nearly pure iron that will probably become wrought to cast iron around 2%+ carbon. Grades of steel are a lower % of the output but are there a good master can and did separate the output for use and sale. A good and well documented version is the Japanese Tatara and it's product, Tatara have been around a couple millennia I believe. It's disappointing articles of this quality make it past peer review. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 Generally agree. The article is dubious. It's not impossible, but it seems to be "we couldn't figure out how they did it, so we found an ancient chisel from a few hundred miles away that's kinda sorta mild steel, and we made another like it and that one did the trick, so that's what they must have done." That isn't proof, it's speculation, and poorly supported speculation with a little bit of experimentation to support it. It ignores a number of factors, like the fact that work hardened bronze approaches a similar hardness to what you could do with 30 points of carbon. It reminds me a bit of the old archaeological speculation that because the Incas managed to put a thin skin of gold or platinum over the surface of statues, they must have had electroplating, when it turned out to be completely different processes that archaeologists hadn't figured out yet. Or the early assumption that Damascus was the same as pattern welding because it looked similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 It's apparently human nature to not want to say, "I don't know," so they substitute "Nobody knows" or "It can't be done," and so on. I've taken to thinking anybody making such statements to be saying, "I don't know and am afraid to admit it." I don't take it as an opportunity to "prove them wrong," they're already feeling sensitive. Iforge is a really good place for people to learn to say "I don't know" because when someone says, "It can't be done," within a few minutes to hours half a dozen members will tell him/er how to do it. I sort of suspect this tendency of humans not wanting to admit ignorance went a long way towards developing the Socratic method. I've been using the method most of my life, learned it from Mother but only learned what to call it a couple decades ago. I can remember asking Mother something and her asking me, "how do you think they did it?" This is a great method because people think up new ways to do things answering THE question or thread of questions. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 Martha used to say, regarding the use of the Socratic Method in law schools, "The problem with the Socratic Method is that it assumes all teachers are Socrates and all students are Aristotle." G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 Socratic Method isn't helpful for mnemonics, is it? Please let Martha know I didn't tell any of the obvious lawyer jokes that straight line begged. Frosty The Lucky. P.S. Sorry, couldn't resist I'm weak and it's late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 I wish I could pass that on to Martha but I won't see her again until I cross the Rainbow Bridge. It's been 10 years. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 Oh darn I forget so many things and some are painful to us both. Whichever of us crosses the bridge first we'll pass it on. IF I remember what I said that is. Time for some effective mnemonics work. Humbly yours, Jerry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 I have not read the referenced article but based on the assessments you've provided it doesn't sound that good. There is evidence for the use of steel going back to the times referenced though. There is a two volume set by V.F. Buchwald that discusses the ancient use of iron and steel in Europe and traces the historical development of that technology. In those books, he details the use of steel found in fasteners used to too join the stone blocks that were used to build the Parthenon. He also points out that Homer gives a description of quench hardening. Homer's works are not quite as old as 900 BC, but the setting (The Trojan War) is roughly 1250 BC. In the book of Proverbs, Solomon writes that "iron sharpens iron" which I take to mean a file sharpening something else. It could be a different technique, but if he was referring to a file then you have another piece of literary evidence from about 900 BC pointing to a knowledge of quench hardening steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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