Larks Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 (edited) I would appreciate any thoughts on what seems to be an anomaly relating to this lovely South German pattern anvil that I have recently become the custodian of. I have done an image search on the “arrow over L” makers mark and the only match, which is pretty much perfect, is from a museum for an old mill and forge in Lindesnäs Sweden, a little way north west of Kolsva. Indications are that the Lindesnäs mill closed down in 1895, whilst the anvil is dated 1909, so I assume that it’s manufacture was away from Lindesnas and, given its style, was more likely manufactured in South Germany. My imagination suggests that, given Germany was in a state of prosperity at the time with a surging iron and manufacturing industry, a blacksmith from Lindesnäs may have moved his family to Southern Germany when the mill closed down and, by 1909, had established a successful blacksmith shop there and maintained his Lindesnäs mark in his new forge. Whilst this seems feasible does anyone have any other thoughts on this? I would really appreciate if anyone who has any deeper knowledge of anvil origins and perhaps of blacksmithing and anvils in Sweden and South Germany at around that time may have any other insights or ideas? I wonder if anyone may possibly have seen the makers mark anywhere else? Also I note the closed loop number 2 in the 225kg weight stamp. I have seen the same closed loop number 2 on some other anvils and they “seem" to be specific to Swedish anvils but I do not have enough experience nor have seen enough variation of anvils to confirm whether that is actually the case, whether the style means anything, or whether they occur in other regions as well. is it possible this closed loop number 2 stamp offers any hints as to the origin of the anvils maker? I have tried to contact the museum in Lindesnäs but have not as yet had any response, this may be because I have emailed in English (because I can’t speak Swedish ...???) https://www.lindesnashembygdsforening.se/ Bye the way, thankyou for accepting me to the forum. I’m located in Queensland Australia. Edited October 6 by Larks Additional information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julianb Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Hello! It is highly unlikely that this anvil was manufactured in Germany. From the one picture it appears to be a cast steel anvil, which would furthermore point to it being made in Sweden at that time. The position of the mark is also untypical for German models, although there's always exceptions. Swedish anvils were produced in any kind of "German" pattern, so that is not actually a geographical indicator. Those pattern designations are in no way solid evidence for the original place of manufacture. The manufacturers in Westfalia, right in the "mid-western" part of Germany produced all kinds of patterns and sold them all over the world. You could be located in Hamburg and order a "Bavarian pattern" anvil, which would then be produced in Westfalia. Anvils travel all over the world, yours has arrived in Australia, hasn't it? To construct a story on how it got where is nice, but without any solid evidence nothing more than wishful thinking. It is still a very nice anvil, could you upload some more pictures of it? Cheers! Julian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 6 Author Share Posted October 6 Thanks Julian, I appreciate the response. The Lindesnäs mill operation was moved to Storhyttan in Stora Tuna which became Domnervets Ironwoks in Borlänge Sweden, but there’s no suggestion that the forge went with it. If the makers mark has any relevance and if they were making various patterns in different areas in the early 20th century, perhaps the blacksmith took the Lindesnäs mark to Borlänge...?? it It is actually a forged anvil but here are a few more photos from when I first inspected it. It’s in transit now but I will get some more photos from different angles when it arrives and I’ll see if a bit of a clean up might show more details in the stamp. There is a “G” to the right of the weight stamp but that may be part of a “KG" stamp with the K obscured. My understanding is that it was purchased from Southern Germany when it came to Australia a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike BR Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Anvil production would have been a pretty big operation, and it looks like Lindesnäs was owned by Stora Koppergerg corporation by the time it was closed and the operations relocated. So if Lindesnäs was in fact making anvils with that mark, it's very likely that the corporation would have kept using it after production was shifted to Borlänge. (Also, the iron and steel industry was still going strong in Sweden at the end of the 19th Century, and indeed it still is. Emigration is of course a major theme in Swedish history, but I doubt a lot of skilled ironworkers would have left.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike BR Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 One other thought: Stora Kopperberg bought Söderfors in 1907. Conceivably they could have put the Lindesnäs mark on a line of anvils produced at Söderfors (whether or not Lindesnäs had produced anvils before it was shuttered). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 6 Author Share Posted October 6 Hi Mike and thankyou for the response, it gets more and more interesting and it all adds to my limited knowledge base and tracking down the potential builder of this anvil so I am very grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julianb Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Thanks for the pictures! Still, this anvil looks cast to me, based on the transition between body and feet. I don't know anything useful about Swedish anvil manufacturers, but if Lindesnäs is not a known one, that mark could also just be an owners mark. Whatever they did with it, they might have gotten it in 1909, weight it, marked it... I strongly doubt that any blacksmith or other person would've been allowed or able to just relocate a makers mark and use it as he saw fit. Most probably just the anvil was moved for whatever reason. The most important thing to keep in mind is that the pattern designation doesn't actually indicate the location of manufacture. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Welcome aboard Larks, nice to have you. I don't see any overt sign your anvil is forged. My experience with Swedish iron industry, "ironworks" is a generic term covering most anything having to do with iron and steel. Also, anvil casting was often something to do with leftover melts, They'd tweak a melt to make spec for small limited products like anvils and pour them rather than pour ingots for remelt. I have a 1926 Soderfors, 125lb. Sorceress #5. It was closed die forged to finish after casting which was a pretty standard process for many cast products. The Soderfors iron works was/is primarily a foundry, the forges, rolls, and other mills were to finish products. Soderfors is the name of the town where the ironworks is and it didn't really matter who owned controlling interest in the factories it was called Soderfors ironworks. This was pretty normal practice and yes, ownership changed hands fairly frequently. Those ironworks were closed because raw materials became too expensive to supply so they moved. Also normal practice. Sometimes they're just mothballed till things change enough to reopen them profitably. Kolhswa is another example of the same things, open, close, etc. based on market and casts anvils with excess melt unless there's a large enough order to devote a melt. Lastly, there are LOTS of anvils sold under different brand names cast and or forged by one of the big Swedish ironworks. Sears anvils at one time were made by Kohlswa. Yeah, I spent a lot of time "learning" about my anvil when I bought it too. But that was when the internet hit on fewer ads and "you might be interested in" sites, than what you actually searched for. Heck, most search engines are data phishers more than search engines. Sorry, the internet turning into a giant ad agency gripes the stuffins out of me. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 Good Morning Larks, I have been to Sweden to visit family, anybody under the age of (now) 80, has learned English at school and by watching movies (with Swedish sub-titles). If someone opened your letter, there is someone near who can read it. Enjoy your Anvil and teach it some of your dialect, you never know where is will be when it grows up. LOL Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike BR Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 I second what swedefiddle said. And the few times I've had contact with one of the Swedish hometown associations, folks have been bubbling over with information and eager to share it. On the other hand, I think they're generally small volunteer organizations run mostly by retirees, so it's not too hard to see how something could fall through the cracks. It looks like the Ludvika association has some information on Lindesnäs, so it might be worth trying https://www.hembygd.se/ludvika/contact. visitdalarna.se might be a possibility as well. Finally, Lindesnäs isn't an Eco Museum site, but perhaps someone at https://ekomuseum.se/en/ could give you a lead (and anyway, there's a lot of interesting information on the website). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 7 Author Share Posted October 7 Thank you all for the responses which I’ve found truly interesting, helpful and informative. Mike, thanks for those links, I’ve now emailed them as well and will be interested to see if they have any information that may build on the picture. It’s interesting that both Frosty and Julian have picked it as a cast anvil. I’ve always been of the understanding that the handling holes (which I believe some call mouse holes) under the horns and the stamped rather than raised markings along with the "ring" of the anvil were more indicative of a forged rather than a cast anvil and the seller, a blacksmith familiar with European anvils, believed it to be forged rather than cast. Although I didn’t turn the anvil over to look under the base for a handling hole, the sound of it under a hammer felt more forged than cast to me however I’ll now have to wait until it is delivered so that I can investigate it further. I also hadn’t thought along the lines that it may have been manufactured by one forge and either finished and sold under a different business much the same as many modern anvils are (ie cast in China with a foreign retailers mark) or even stamped and dated by the owner. I know that I am chasing this down a rabbit hole but I find it very intriguing and I am genuinely very grateful for all of the responses that add to the potential picture of the origins of this anvil. Even if I never truly find the origins of it, I have already learned more in these few posts than I could have previously contemplated. I’ll post any responses that I may get from the museums and historical groups. Most intriguing to me is the background and possible meaning of the L/arrow mark itself. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julianb Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 Good morning (at least around here it is), the handling holes are only an indicator of a forged anvil and not a really reliable one at that. Most larger cast models do have them, to allow easy movement for production steps like heat treatment, grinding, etc. A real giveaway would be the welding seems between the different parts, for example where the horns have been welded to the body. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 7 Author Share Posted October 7 Thanks Julian and good afternoon from here. I’m really intrigued now and am impatient to have a much closer look when I get it home but in all honesty there was nothing about this anvil that I (or the seller) could see to suggest that it had been cast and everything about it indicating that it was forged. I can’t say that I’m really too fussed either way though, as it is just such a nice anvil with a nice feel and sound and shape to it and it’s the one that I doubt that I’ll ever part with. Cast or forged I’m looking forward to making a base for it and putting it to work. I’ve bought and sold a few anvils over time and have forged on all of them and have only held onto the ones that I’ve found nicest to work on, which interestingly are a couple of Wilkinson Queens Dudley anvils. Until now I’ve only ever had London pattern anvils as they are the most popular and available here in Australia, but I'd been looking for a double horned anvil for quite a while and this is my first of this type and in just the short time that I had with it before getting it shipped home it felt like a much superior anvil. The proof will be in moving some steel on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 If it is of any interest, I did actually also find myself in possession of a Belgian UAT cast anvil in quite reasonable condition, marked as 225kg but weighing in at 236kg. I will also set this one up on a good block and have a bit of a play on it for a while but I don’t plan on hanging on to it long term (unless by chance it turns out to be nicer to work on than my other one). I bought it more for the potential to pass it on in an area where few of these are available with the hope that I might make enough profit to at least cover the freight costs of my “Lindesnäs” anvil (I’ll call it that for convenience regardless of its origins ). The cost of freight for 500kg of anvils was relatively the same as for 250kg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Good Morning Larks, Welcome from this part of the world. You have 2 very nice Anvils!! I wouldn't write off either Anvil until you actually spend some time and treat them to some Loving Care. Just because you think they may be Cast, doesn't make them not 'A Keeper'. There are an awful lot of Very Good Anvils that are Cast!! Pay attention to your feelings and not someone who has never handled them!! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 (edited) Thanks Neil. Yes, the little bit of “tapping” that I did on them when I bought them suggested that both are well worth using and I wouldn’t have bought either otherwise. The UAT anvil did take a bit of thought though, weighed up against a couple of others, while the “Lindesnäs” anvil took no thought at all, it just felt so good and the surface is in good shape with no visible signs of repair. It wasn’t until after I’d agreed to buy it that I actually discovered the markings, so I can’t even say that I might have been swayed by the date and origin. I am quite prepared for the UAT anvil to turn out to be better to work on than the “Lindesnäs” anvil and so to be difficult to part with, (in which case I may end up keeping both ....I’ll just tell my wife that no one wanted to buy it...) Edited October 8 by Mod30 Remove excessive quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 Good Morning, "Nobody wanted to buy it", goes with "I've had that for a real LONG Time". The longer the story, the more Time!! LOL Some of the Swedish Anvils have a real sharp piercing ring!! Mount it with Silicone to take some of the Crisp, out. A pail/bucket of sand with a piece of Plywood on top works well too, you can adjust the height of the Anvil by adding/removing some sand. Just DON'T "Kick the Bucket!!" LOL Enjoy the time making such a Decision, or Knot!! LOL Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 Mark, it looks to me like you have hit the nail on the head with Stora Kopperberg and Söderfors - here’s an anvil being sold (in Holland) as "Anvil of the Swedish brand Soderfors. It was forged in the year 1912 and weighs 96kg” which shows some remarkable similarities to my “Lindesnäs” anvil - other than weight and year it is the same. The stamp style is essentially identical: the Lindesnäs L/arrow emblem is more faint but still visible above the weight and date stamps, the “K” from KG is almost illegible on the 96kg anvil and the closed loop 2 is the same. The style and shape are also essentially identical with the somewhat unique toes narrowing from the base towards the tow rather than broadening as most seem to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 Frosty, is there any chance of getting a look at your Sorceress? I can see on other threads that you’ve posted pics before but none appear active or visible any more so my apologies if you’re getting tired of having to post pics. I’m not familiar with closed die forged to finish after casting....something else to Google over the weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 For what it’s worth, I spoke to the previous owner today and he actually purchased it from Belgium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 I'll have to go out and take a couple later today, my old pics died with my old computer. I tried a number of things to reduce it's brutally loud piercing ring any missed strike on the anvil face made my ears ring through ear plugs AND muffs. A few times I allowed another smith to work on it at demos and the ones who tapped the anvil between blows literally drove spectators away. I tried bedding it in a number of different things on my anvil block from rubber sheet, felt and clay to absorb it's resonance. A couple helped a little, the old chain wrap was maybe the most effective but I still had to double up on hearing protection and be very careful not to hit the anvil. Ahhh, everybody will be pleased to know I just deleted half a page of rambling. The gist of it was I realized two pieces of metal touching self damp resonance and made my first steel tripod anvil stand which quieted the Sorceress from make your ears ring through plugs and muffs to quiet enough a missed blow doesn't make spectators back well away from us. I'll get pics in a while. Don't let me forget please, my memory stinks. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryFahnoe Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 57 minutes ago, Frosty said: Ahhh, everybody will be pleased to know I just deleted half a page of rambling. Kudos to you for the editorial exercise leading to the punch in your next sentence. I do generally enjoy your rambling Jerry; you never know where those seeds will sprout. --Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewoon ik Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 7 hours ago, Larks said: For what it’s worth, I spoke to the previous owner today and he actually purchased it from Belgium I go cry a bit in a corner for 2 nice anvils leaving to the other side of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larks Posted October 9 Author Share Posted October 9 Oh, sadly (luckily for us in Australia) I think there were more than two Gewoon - there were a few that were definitely not for sale when I picked mine out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 I found a pic of one of my tripod stands, this is under my Trenton and wearing fresh paint and rigged to load in the pickup. The frame around the anvil's foot is 2" angle iron flange up. The angle iron is the only thing directly under the anvil, it's open in the center. The tong rack showing wedges between the stand's rim and the anvil's foot with a couple hammer blows. The tong rack is on the far side. . . Maybe, I don't see the top of the rack in this pic. The only reason the legs are 2" x 4" rectangular tubing is because I had it handy, that much steel isn't really necessary. I'll have to remember to take a couple pics of the Soderfors. I'm leaving a sticky note on my computer table now. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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