Correy Smith Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 Hi guys. looking for a venturi type tube burner to swap out in the Mathewson's forge I have which is a 3/4 and barely will get yellow/white and can not in a reducing atmosphere. The forge is actually a decent design and size. The burner not so much. Takes about 45 minutes to get to peak temps which are under whelming. Looking for a user friendly plug and play that won't break the bank. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I just took a look at the Mathewson site and am not so impressed with the forge either. If you were to enlarge it enough to put two 1" layers of rigidized ceramic blanket refractory with a 1/4"-3/8" hard refractory flame face layer it would perform far better even with that mediocre burner. Add a high zirconia kiln wash and a better burner and it would melt the 3/8" sq. used in the demo in much shorter time than the demo video. I'm more of a build my own burner kind of guy, when I started the entire material cost not counting reg and hose, was about $8. Now I think it'd run more to $30-50 depending on where you live of course. There are good commercial burners available but there are so many cheap Chinese knockoffs pirating the ads I can't tell which is which. I'm sure someone here knows better than I and will be along before long. How are your basic shop skills? Have access to a drill press? A T burner is really easy to build if you can follow the directions posted in the gas burner section of Iforgeiron. If you run into a problem, give me a shout I'll be happy to help. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 The problem is that good burners come and go in the market. Right now, they have mostly gone. You can still buy a Mister Volcano burner, by purchasing the forge it's in. Considering how low the price of their forges are, and how good their burners are, that is still a great deal. I believe you can still buy "Z" burners from Zoeller Forge, which are good enough. For any other burners presently being marketed...its a crap shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jeff Posted July 17 Share Posted July 17 I think you can buy Chile Forge's Diablo burner, but I am unsure of there cost. I don't own one but I believe they are good from what I've read on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Correy Smith Posted July 17 Author Share Posted July 17 Hi guys thank for taking the time to give me some tips. Its very much appreciated. Frosty,Jeff, Mikey, The couple of things I like about the Mathewson design is the built in fire brick doors and stock rest, handle on top, size is ok for most things I endeavor. It is what they call now the metalsmith forge... I bought it about 10 years ago. I'm a woodworker who moonlights as a hardware maker for my own furniture I make. So handles and nails and hasps etc...Ive used the forge very sporadically over the ten years. Maybe only put less than 100 gallons thru it. Heres the specs... ( this model actually has 2" of insulation)... 1x MetalSmith Forge Outer dimensions 13 x 13 x 14″ Chamber dimensions 4½ x 4 x 9″ Body wall Extra thick ¼″ steel Chamber insulation 2″ rigidized, sealed & cement-coated ceramic fiber Slideable fire brick doors on both sides Flux resistant fire brick floor Adjustable material rest Carry handle 1x Propane Burner Length 12″ Heat output 150.000 BTU Adjustable choke Nozzle diameter 1½″ Nozzle material Heavy wall stainless steel Orifice Precision machined brass 1x Propane Regulator Pressure range 0-30 PSI I was not impressed when it was first delivered, There were cracks in the refractory that I felt were from too thick and drying too fast but some cracks around the fire brick seemed like they came from shifting of the brick in travel. Shipping to Hawaii is brutal and it probably should have been packed better. I never coated the interior with kiln wash. I don't believe it came with it. I did call the guy when he still actually had customer service and he sent me a bag of cement to patch the areas. It did "OK" for most things. In the recent project I needed to weld some flat spring lock bolts. ( just a folded piece of steel) I did manage to get thru it but the interior of the forge has started coming apart and needs maintenance now. I never liked the choke action and have had doubts about how fuel and air are mixing in the tube after reading many many many post about forges and burners. Its now has rusted a bit and I should probably give it a good cleaning, its just iron pipe. To get small parts to a yellow white color I had to pound about 16psi into the forge with the choke open, then cut it back just as I put the part in that had been preheating in the door opening, so it was already orange-ish. Mostly trying not to burn the thin flat spring section of what I was making. It was the only way I found I could get the temp and atmosphere, drive the heat with lots of air and then cut it back when the preheated part went in. Mikey, I looked at the Volcano and huh, looks like their kit would be everything I need to rehab my forge. Cheaper and easier than sourcing all the stuff individually. Do you feel that the sundries that are in the kit are good enough to work with? I will take some pics of the deteriorating interior. I worry for it but I have never seen the outside of the forge get beyond a black blue hot. The little bit of welding I did were on broken pieces of a pizza stone which seemed to work fine for a sacrificial surface. If you all want to check out what I've been making there's pics on Instagram at www.instagram.com/matsukazeshigotoba and a gallery of my finished work on www.instagram.com/matsukazemokkou its all mostly woodwork stuff. I mostly recreate 19th century Japanese type cabinetry and architectural work. Most of the iron hardware is impossible to source now so I've been making what I need to. Thanks again for the replies. All your comments are much appreciated. Aloha, Correy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 18 Share Posted July 18 4 hours ago, Correy Smith said: Mikey, I looked at the Volcano and huh, looks like their kit would be everything I need to rehab my forge. Cheaper and easier than sourcing all the stuff individually. Do you feel that the sundries that are in the kit are good enough to work with? Yes. You got the idea I was trying to get across, just fine however, considering what you described as the work you want to do with your forge...you may want to just run their forge as is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 You can buy Chile Forge burners, and while expensive, they are worth every dollar. However, I think they only market 1" size burners; that is very large for the average forge. A 1" burner is the equivalent of two 3/4" burners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Correy Smith Posted August 30 Author Share Posted August 30 Hi Mikey. In general, how much fuel can you push into a forge? I may just be timid. I have only put 15psi a couple of times it seemed like a lot of excess burn out the door. Im still getting a grip with adjusting the air to fuel. It seems after the forge is hot it burns differently than when warming up. I assume the more fuel you put in you would also have to open the air choke ? Is there a point of ridiculous in regards to the amount of flame coming out the door that should be avoided? I thinkk the set up goes to 30psi. I hear some guys running 20 but never had the nerve to turn up that high. It's all subjective given that all forges are different. You guys have a much better understanding of the limits of a 3/4 burner than I do. Sounds like a 1" maybe be too big. Although I make mostly small things for furniture hardware, I do need to be able to make tooling and and such that comes from larger stock. And there are some things that should be forge welded together. Im unsure if the forge burner is up to the task or I've been holding back on the fuel. Sorry for late response. I appreciate any tips you can offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 1 hour ago, Correy Smith said: Hi Mikey. In general, how much fuel can you push into a forge? I may just be timid. I have only put 15psi a couple of times it seemed like a lot of excess burn out the door. Im still getting a grip with adjusting the air to fuel. To begin with, gas pressure is a poor gauge of fuel use, without knowing the size of your burner's gas orifice. For instance, a 3/4" "T" burner will take an .035" size MIG contact tip, while a 3/4" Mikey burner should be run with a .023" MIG contact tip for that burner size. So at 15 PSI positive gauge pressure, the "T" burner will put out around the same amount of fuel as a Mikey burner at 25 PSI. I suggest that what you watch primarily, is the exhaust output; let that determine how much to turn your burner up. If you can't get the heat level desired whithout turning the burner up so high as to make an exhaust flame, it is time to improve your burner. Do not hesitate to bring up your objections and questions. Don't think for one minuet that there aren't loads of people who share them. The only dumb question is the one that you forget to ask This brings us to the other side of your question. So, from my book notes: Flame control is about more than choosing the right burner design, and proper tuning; it is equally about selecting the proper burner size. These are primarily equipment burners. So, understand that heat management only begins with increased flame temperatures. The reason burners are aimed on a tangent, is to cause their combustion gasses to swirl around equipment interiors, creating a longer distance from flame tip and exhaust opening. Obviously, a lengthened exhaust path increases the amount of hang time, for hot gases to deposit combustion energy on internal surfaces. What is not so clear is that the heat gained is not added by these gases blowing an extra foot or two at high speed; it is due to their continuing drop in velocity over the added distance. Hot gases begin to slow, as soon as they leave the flame envelope. The flames of two 1/2" burners will use the same amount of fuel to produce an equal amount of heat as a single 3/4” burner; but they will drop velocity much faster in a five-gallon forge or casting furnace, increasing efficiency, because their flames can burn faster/hotter without creating a wasteful tongue of fire out the equipment’s exhaust opening. Ditto for two 3/8” burners versus a single ½” burner in a two-gallon combination forge/furnace, or two ¼” versus a single 3/8” burner in a one/gallon forge/furnace. The parts and tubing these burners are built from all cost less, as their sizes decrease; generally, it costs little or no more to make two smaller burners, rather than a single larger burner. When buying from online sources, it is usual to find two or three small tubes offered for little or nothing more than a single tube, because the sellers want to justify a minimum price, on every sale, and two or three additional small tubes, cost nothing extra to ship. When forging small parts, further efficiency can be gained by placing a temporary partition in equipment interiors; separating them into twin spaces, and shutting down the rear burner. This is something that cannot be done with a single larger burner, which is centrally located. Combination forge/furnaces can have the forward burner shut down during casting operations, so that its flame is not wasted, from being positioned too high up the crucible. The main point of these burners is efficiency. So, you should not tell yourself “good enough,” and place them in second rate equipment. Follow through, by building equally efficient forges or furnaces to place them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 On 8/30/2024 at 2:06 PM, Correy Smith said: In general, how much fuel can you push into a forge? I know this isn't addressed to me but it's the question I asked myself when I started tinkering with Jet ejectors and the T burner. My basic aim was to put as much flammable fuel air mixture in the chamber per second as possible. Shortly my other goal was a good burner that required a minimum of shop skills and tools. Changes in diameter equal the square of the area. Area of the tube, orifice, etc. is the determining factor for carrying capacity at a given pressure. The T burner (jet ejector) has 4x the air intake as is typical of a linear with the similar mixing tube dia. Which means it can induce sufficient combustion air with a much lower propane velocity. This is a function of jet ejectors which industrially are used to draw vacuum, only home builder guys use them for burners. Anyway they induce lots of air so you must feed the primary (gas jet) more fuel. Tinkering I found the 0.035 mig contact tip was the smallest dia. orifice that worked well. Lots of guys use smaller say Mike's 0.025" or even 0.023" jets but they MUST choke the bejeebers out of the air intakes to get even close to a neutral flame. Once a T is tuned it maintains a very flat induction curve at any PSI within it's range. I didn't even think about it until Mike and I started talking directly here but what makes a T a really effective burner is the almost silly low flame velocity. It is in fact one of the most common problems guys have, "why is the flame burning in the tube?" The mix MUST flow faster than the flame front or rate of propagation. Flame speed through the mixture. Anyway, I just wanted an effective burner that wasn't tied to electricity, talking to an old coffee shop buddy resulted in a box full of stuff about induction devices. Cruz was looking to patent a version that'd inflate a tire with a CO2 capsule which is something one of these just will not do. That box of papers, brochures, drawings, patents, etc. led to the T burner. About all I knew about burning gas was what I learned in metal shop class, mainly how to adjust a flame by eye. My other secret was notes, I took notes. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 I finally looked up Mathewson's forge.Avoiding useless negative comments, I will just say that you should move the firebrick out of that little forge, and replace it with a piece of high alumina kiln shelf; that will due nearly as much to improve the forge as a better burner would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 Yeah, that would be a start. Providing a SAFE flame face would be my first suggestion! All the images I saw showed it operating with an uncoated ceramic blanket refractory liner! At least rigidize and apply a hard ceramic inner liner (flame face) to prevent the vitrified ceramic fibers from breaking free and floating in your breathable air to lodge in your lungs. Think Mesothelioma with enough exposure. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Correy Smith Posted September 5 Author Share Posted September 5 Mikey, Frosty. Many thanks for your advice. Yes, removing the brick might be a huge help. Honestly it takes about an hour or more for the brick to heat up, its obviously a huge heat thief. I'll pull the tip and see what size it is. The interior of the forge is pretty small, about 5" diameter by 10 long. I think I can intentionally achieve a neutral atmosphere. I definitely can see the difference in regards to scale lol. feels like I have more vent than needed. The choke isn't long enough to cover all the holes and the gap around the mig tip draws quite a bit of air itself. I think the forge manufactures videos are pretty old and only really show his base model. I can't imagine not having the refractory. I'm sure I would catch something on the insulation and rip it will it was hot. Thanks for the advice guys much appreciated. Correy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 On 9/4/2024 at 8:08 PM, Correy Smith said: its obviously a huge heat thief. "Heat thief." I like that; it's a good description. The other problem is the amount of internal area it takes up, in a very bad way; since it will interfere with the smooth swirl of the internal atmosphere. The other problem with your forge, according to their own photo, is a burner that does not create a hot neutral flame. Was I you, I would look into building a 1/2" size Frosty burner, and call it good. Yes, yes...I know that I suggested a Mister Volcano burner. However, that little forge would be better served with a 1/2" burner size, and a know of no manufacturer who sells a good 1/2" burner, anymore. But, will it get to welding heat? If you build it right, and get rid of your "heat thief," I expect so But, won't a neutral flame create more scale on the heating parts? NO! The problem is that most guys don't see the difference between a neutral and slightly oxidizing flame. Also, lots of propane systems pulse; they do not feed a steady gas supply, and so the burners they serve, will end up running with a neutral flame part of the time, with an oxidizing flame the rest of the time. The answer to both problems is to turn your burner down to a lightly reducing flame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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