Greetings From New Member

[MrMedieval]

Hi everyone, i wanted to ask a question regarding building my first propane forge.

My last forge which i built a few years ago was a coke forge which worked great, but i want to take the step towards propane for i have my own propane bottles, gauges, etc.

I wanted to ask is it possible to build a propane forge that could be used for tempering also?

I  would like to build my own hand and a half sword so having a forge long enough to evenly distribute the heat before quenching would be great, but to also have the ability to use the forge as an oven for tempering would be very helpful..

Is it possible to build a forge that can do both, or would it be better to just build a separate oven?

I'm good with building and welding so building a propane forge would be enjoyable.

Thanks for having me.

 

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

First, it would be a help if you put your general location in your profile.  First, it helps us menatally locate you in our minds and, second, a surprising number of answers are geography dependent.  This is a world wide forum and we don't know if you are in Lapland or Tasmania.

Second, it is not necessary to have a long forge to forge a long object like a sword.  You can only work on a small area, about 4-6" in length before the work cools enough that it has to be put back in the fire.  So, you need a forge with a pass through to be able to forge the entire length of the work but you don't need to heat the whole thing every time.  That is wasteful of fuel and risks decarburizing the metal from too many heats.

You do need to have the whole thing heated to critical (nonmagnetic) temperature before you quench/harden the work.  This can be done by moving the work through a smaller fire or constucting a long fire.  The long fire can be a special forge or it can be as simple as a long trench fire of wood or charcoal.

Third, to then temper the hardened work piece you can move the work past a heat source or move the heat source along the work.  Examples would be moving the work through a propane forge or moving a torch (propane, oxy/propane, or oxy acetylene) along the work.  Or, using a long oven into which you place the hardened work at a certain temperature for a certain time.

Or, you can send the work out to be professionally heat treated.  I believe this is what is done for tempering on the TV show, Forged in Fire.

Fourth, a sword is a fairly advanced project and shouldn't be started until you have a certain amount of skill at general blacksmithing.  Lots of folks want to start backsmithing so that they can make a sword but that often ends in tears because they do not have the skill and knowledge to do so successfully.  If you do not have a reasonable amount of skill and knowledge already I strongly suggest that, if you are in the USA, you look up the local Blacsmith Artist Association of North America affiliate and join and take awhile to learn the basics of the craft.  This will be worth it in the long run and will greatly increase the probability of success of your sword project. 

Despite having been blacksmithing for 44 years I have never attempted a sword even though I have a strong interest in medieval history  and have done considerable medieval histoc reenactment.  This is largely because blade work involves LOTS of bench work such as grinding, filing, and building a guard, handle, and pommel.  Not to mention building a scabbard.  I would rather be hitting hot iron that spending many, many hours at the bench.

Thomas Power, who was once apprentice to a sword maker, may be able to offer more advice.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

It's been my experience that tools that do both, do neither well. I'm sure some of the sword makers and propane forge gurus will be along shortly to better explain than I can.

[MrMedieval]

Thank you George and IFW for the warm welcome.

I updated my profile thanks George.

I not new to forging..the post was in regards to building my first propane forge for i have relocated and i gave away the forge i built a few years ago, and where I'm living now a propane forge would simply be a better alternative and cleaner.

I love spending tine grinding and filing, though for my first sword i will be buying the guard and pommel first so that will save time but when it comes to forging a sword patience will be a virtue and there is no rush.

I went to buy a sword awhile ago..but i have never really like what i have seen, and i have read some stories of some companies doing very bad heat treatments on their blades, so i would rather build my own with my preference of steel and i would be much happier.

Building a scabbard will be great fun, but that will be more of a challenge for me to build than forge my own blade that's for sure.

Actually building a long fire is a great idea i never thought of that thank you...but i will want to build an oven so i can read the temperature for the best heat treatment.

You mentioned Thomas Power, is he a member here? Would be awesome to get some advice from him, being an apprentice to a sword maker would have been an amazing experience. 

Thank you again for your kind words and welcome.

 

5 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

It's been my experience that tools that do both, do neither well.

I had a feeling one tool might not be best for both..but after forging knives only in a coke/coal forge and never having forged a sword before it had me thinking.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mod34
Trimmed quotes

[JHCC]

Welcome to IFI! If you haven't yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!!

"Is it possible?" has an oft-neglected cousin: "Is it worth it?" A lot of the time, people tend to focus on the first without considering the second (full disclosure: I'm as guilty of this as anyone), and end up wasting a lot of time, money, and material. The calculation of whether or not something is worth is applies both to how effective something will be and also to how much you're going to use it. It's therefore a good idea to think things through before you get started, and we're here to help with that.

You are right to be thinking about temperature control for heat treatment, and you should also think seriously about evenness of heating. Commercial heat treatment ovens are designed to provide the same temperature throughout, so that no part of the blade is either too hot or not hot enough. This is true for both hardening and tempering.

The necessity of moving a long blade back and forth through the hot spot of a forge (regardless of whether it's gas or solid fuel) can also be seen as an advantage: if there's an area that's cooler than the rest of the blade, just hold that spot in the heat for a bit longer. That's not something you can do with a long gas forge or a trench fire.

Unless you are planning to be making a lot of swords, I would hesitate to recommend building a dedicated sword-hardening forge. Even then, it might be worthwhile to consider what other professional swordmakers use; I think you'll find that relatively few of them ever use anything like what you're describing. 

2 hours ago, MrMedieval said:

You mentioned Thomas Power, is he a member here? Would be awesome to get some advice from him, being an apprentice to a sword maker would have been an amazing experience.

It's Thomas Powers (with an "s" on the end), and he's a prolific IFI contributor under the username "ThomasPowers". 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Mr. Medieval, glad to have you. There are ways to build a propane forge for hardening though they don't work for forging. Using a regular forge for heat hardening is easier and less destructive. 

Tempering is a different kettle of fish and a hand and a half sword is probably too long to fit the kitchen oven. Tempering a long project in a home built furnace is tricky.

You  need precision heat control and that's not easy to pull off. Were I doing it I'd put the word out for a used commercial oven, restaurants remodel more often than you'd think, I've seen appliances sitting in parking lots and alleys pretty often.

Not knowing on what part of the continent of Australia you reside I can't opine on how much trouble it would be to send it out for professional heat treatment but that is what I'd do myself. Were bladesmithing my thing and I'd stepped so far into the dark side I made a - a - a SWORD!

Were there a good enough reason I had to heat treat something that scale I'd make a number of practice swords from the same steel and practice before the ONE I had to get right. By practice sword it'd just be a rough finished blade, same length, width, thickness, taper and steel. 

We can help you build a propane forge and burners or three, no sweat. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[MrMedieval]

Frosty-Thanks very much amigo.

That's a great idea about using a used commercial oven thank you for that I'll start looking for them.

I agree about using a practice sword for sure..i did that with knives a few years ago.

For my sword I will be using 80CRV2..and practice steels will be from 5160 which i have plenty of.

 

JHCC-Hi and thanks also for your reply.

Sorry i was warned by a moderator for abusing quote feature so I'll just the @ symbol to address the replies.

The help will be greatly appreciated thank you..and i plan to make quite a few swords over the next few years for sure.

[tinkertim]

MrMedieval, you can do quotes, just trim out the un-needed text so you only quote exactly what is needed.

The reason for this is that many users of this forum have limited bandwidth, and so minimising quotes to just the necessary text, as well as posting small images instead of large videos, helps to minimise the storage requirements on the server and aides our bandwidth-limited brethren.

Regarding the use of the @"name" reference.  This forum's underlying engine doesn't like the use of @"name" references and you will get asked not to use them.

Hope this helps.

Tink!

[Latticino]

I've successfully forged and finished two swords to date, both in week long classes at a local craft school, and prepared a handful of others for heat treatment. The latter haven't been finished due to the difficulties in setting up dedicated sword hardening and tempering equipment.

The advice to date regarding use of a smaller forge for the actual forging is good.  However what we used to great effect for hardening was a large (55 gallon) drum lined with 1" of refractory blanket.  One port near the bottom for a 1" propane burner and two in the lid (one for the sword blank and the other for a vent that used a brick cover to selectively vent the chamber and make small adjustments to temperature.  The extremely large forge volume helps to provide a relatively stable temperature for austenizing the steel, but don't let the flame directly impinge on the blank.  I believe this was originally a Don Fogg design, and you may be able to reference it as such.

Tempering was done in a heated bath of canola oil .  This works well, but you need to be careful of the flashpoint of the oil and to ensure you take into account the volume of the steel you will be putting into the tank so you don't get an overflow.

I have seen a demo where a larger size blade was heated for hardening in a long trough filled with lump charcoal and fanned with a pizza box lid.  It worked, but it is a bit of an art form rather than a science (and Phil Baldwin, the experienced maker who did the demo ended up burning himself badly with the hot oil).

[BillyBones]

As far as a reputable heat treat facility, if you choose to send it out, ask a local machine shop where they send parts to. 

[MrMedieval]

12 hours ago, tinkertim said:

Thanks Tink that explains a lot.

 

9 hours ago, Latticino said:

Tempering was done in a heated bath of canola oil .  This works well, but you need to be careful of the flashpoint of the oil.

Yep for sure..i never thought of using oil to achieve a temper thanks for the advice much appreciated.

4 hours ago, BillyBones said:

As far as a reputable heat treat facility, if you choose to send it out, ask a local machine shop where they send parts to. 

Thanks Billybones i have just the place i could ask about that.

[Frosty]

Ease off on using the quote button. Most of the time we'll know who you're talking to and using the log in name works nicely. Quotes can add unnecessary bandwidth for those members on slow connections who pay for data. It's a world wide forum, some places the town has ONE shared computer. 

Don't sweat it, the forum has it's own learning curve and we'll coach you along. Its all good.

Frosty The Lucky.

[MrMedieval]

No worries at all thanks FTL.

I'm going to make a new thread in regards to building..or maybe buying a new forge.

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

I have been known to post here from time to time.   

Evenness of temp in tempering (and other HT) is a major factor.  Note that even commercial HT places may have problems with long blades vs "compact" masses.    Alloys can help.  Immersion in evenly heated materials can help as well.