Mud King Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Hello all I have a question can you forge weld S7 and 4140 together to make Damascus? If so what steps would you take to achieve an excellent weld? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Welcome from the Ozark mountains. First question is why would you want to do that? As I understand S7 is air hardening and 4140 is oil hardening. The question comes up how would the billet be heat treated? I'm sure some of the members who have a lot more experience with those two steels will chime in. In the mean time this is a good read. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/50270-heated-steel-debate/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Some folks can forge weld most anything together one way or another... If you expect trouble I would look into doing a cannister weld and exceptional cleanliness in the surface of the pieces. Induction forge in a hard vacuum might be another way to go; got any friends on the International Space Station? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud King Posted October 16, 2022 Author Share Posted October 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said: Welcome from the Ozark mountains. First question is why would you want to do that? As I understand S7 is air hardening and 4140 is oil hardening. The question comes up how would the billet be heat treated? I'm sure some of the members who have a lot more experience with those two steels will chime in. In the mean time this is a good read. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/50270-heated-steel-debate/ Thank you for the information! The reason I asked is because I have it handy and figured I would give it a shot. I was unaware of the two's different techniques of hardening. I was just looking to try something I couldn't find any information on. My grandfather was a black Smith/ heavy equipment mechanic but passed before I could learn any smithing from him. But knowing this new information I believe I will go a different route. I'm basically wanting to make kitchen knives for friends and family that are extremely durable and keep an edge longer that the junk you basically get from stores without going in to dept for. That and I'm tired of everyone constantly bringing their knives to me to be sharpened all the time lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Frequent sharpening is a function of how hard the steel is tempered. If you want to make blades that don't need to be sharpened frequently temper to a cooler color such as bronze rather than the more common blue. A harder knife will be more brittle. So, if the anticipated use has a lot of lateral loads on the blade a springier temper (blue) is better. For example, razors are tempered harder because in normal use they have little twisting or lateral force on the blade. A hunting or camp knife which might be used to chop through a game animal's pelvis or rib cage or wood is subject to a lot of lateral force. I have seen knives used that way with big chips out of the edge. You may want to experiment with some samples ("cupons") of a particular steel to see how hard it is and how difficulat or easy it is to break or bend the sample when quenched and tempered in different quenches and different tempers. IMO, kitchen knives can be tempered harder than general use blades because they are generally used just for stright cutting with no prying, etc.. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 11 hours ago, Mud King said: Thank you for the information! The reason I asked is because I have it handy and figured I would give it a shot. I was unaware of the two's different techniques of hardening. I was just looking to try something I couldn't find any information on. My grandfather was a black Smith/ heavy equipment mechanic but passed before I could learn any smithing from him. But knowing this new information I believe I will go a different route. I'm basically wanting to make kitchen knives for friends and family that are extremely durable and keep an edge longer that the junk you basically get from stores without going in to dept for. That and I'm tired of everyone constantly bringing their knives to me to be sharpened all the time lol. If you’re considering other options, something else to keep in mind is that if you don’t have heat treating equipment available and plan to heat treat in the forge, there are other steels that you will find easier to get good results with compared to S7. S7 will also be harder to forge by hand since it is a tool steel intended withstand higher temps. 4140 would be easy enough to heat treat, but lacks the carbon for a good quality knife. Something like like 1095 would a good choice and easier to manage though can still present some challenge from a heat treat perspective. 1084 is a good choice and very user friendly. You might not eek out quite the same performance for a kitchen knife that you could with a higher carbon steel, but if you are just beginning, I think you are more likely to get good results with a steel that is easier to heat treat well, while focusing your attention on things like the optimal blade thickness and edge geometry. For your first knives, and especially kitchen knives, I think those factors will have a more noticeable affect on performance rather than a couple point more rockwell hardness or a little more toughness from a more exotic alloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 can I forge weld them? yes I can, would I want to? no, its a terrible mix for a knife If you want to try study up on Ausforging. OR just do it all at once, start to finish never going below the hardening temp EVER. until ready to harden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Steve can forge weld some exotic stuff, if he can’t he has a couple of sadistic mentors that send him care packages that probably can!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 I'll bet Steve has acquaintances that send him combinations to see if it CAN be welded. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 I dont know about that Frosty, BUT JPH sent me my first meteorite for me to weld up, then assigned me his MAD 6 mix, M2, A2 and D2 for a billet, that was fun... He taught my teacher, so when Bill passed on, I think JIm substituted me for abuse, errr training Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 And you think your mentors didn't assign / suggest something to you while asking themselves if it was possible? Go ahead, tell my you haven't done the same to students to "expand" their experience. I don't take many students but I have experienced how not knowing something can't be done often makes it possible. My term for the phenomena is, "Opinion un-polluted by knowledge." Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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