Forge Press - James L Baston Jr

[rls1160]

Good morning all,

I would like to build a Forge press, through the iForge Iron forum I learned about James' book, which I purchased and have been going through.

On my second pass through the book I realized there are two different forge press designs. One appears to be a smaller 20 ton H frame press with tye cylinder ram mounted at bottom with an upward traveling piston. The second design with mechanical drawings at back of book are of a 24 ton presss that appears to be something other than an H frame design.  It looks more like a single pedestal in which the ram and anvil block mount and slide on the face of the Large H beam flange.  This appears to create a press that one feeds material into the anvil dies from the left and or right side of the press when looking straight onto the press.

The smaller 20 ton H frame press allows material to be passed through the anvil dies from the front of the press.

My questions are:

Has anyone built or used each of these designs and what are your thoughts on working with each type?

I like the concept of the smaller H Fame but do not like tye bottom mounted and upward moving ram piston.  I am used to a 50# Little Giant.  The upward moving anvil orientation seems as it would be problematic and a bit disorienting while forging. 

The 24 ton Pedestal design is more akin to what I am use to except form limitation of being able to rum material straight into the dies. This makes it seam a bit awkward to feed and control ram motion from the side. also not sure if a foot mounted control similar to a traditional power hammer control foot bar could be fashioned.

My next question,  Has seen or modified the 20 ton H frame to position the ram at the top inorder to have a downward operating piston and anvil?

I will have a welding fabrication shop weld up the frame parts.  I am looking for input on the different designs and the modifications needed to reverse piston motion on the 20 to H frame press.

Thank you,

Rick

 

 

[Frosty]

The main difference is working height of the dies and overall height of the press. The upward motion press's total height doesn't need to be too tall, 6' maybe and the dies are about waist height. The downwards motion press tends to exceed 8'+ unless you put the anvil die really low. 

Clearing the support structure with long stock is typically accomplished by angling the dies like my Little Giant power hammer. Lengthening stock in the drawing dies it passes to the left of the frame, widening it passes to the right. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[rls1160]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Lengthening stock in the drawing dies it passes to the left of the frame, widening it passes to the right. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

Thank you Frosty for the quick reply.  

Frosty if I understand what your saying here, the die mounting plates can be angled so stock can be run as shown in the attached drawing?

 

I dont get what you mean by lengthening to the left and widening to the right? Isn't that simply a preference or work requirement of feeding from left or right into a drawing die to lengthen out stock? 

Wouldn't widening stock be a cross peen orientation die to stock?  Maybe your refrrencing some type of multifunction die plate that I am no following or understanding.

Rick

[NoGoodWithUsernames]

I think you are both on the same page but coming from different angles (pun intended) If you have the dies in the press (or power hammer) and you run across them perpendicular then they will draw out, if you change the angle of your stock to run parallel to them they will widen the stock. I believe Frosty is bringing this up as the benefit is you just change your stock positioning, you don't have to move the dies around when you want to change function.

[Frosty]

That's the idea Rick but instead of using wide flange for the frame use I beam. It gets it's strength from the depth of the "web" rather than the width of the flange. 

What you've sketched is "wide" flange or "H" pile. "I" beam is the shape of the capitol letter I. On an open throated press all the force from the ram will be in line with the web and so long as the cylinder pushes straight it won't torque and twist the beam. Wide flange is more resistant to twisting and is what's used for bridge or foundation piles. I beam  is typically used for bridge beams where all the weight is aligned with the web but it needs to maintain some flexibility.

A little angle bracing along the web between the flanges will eliminate any twisting a 20 ton ram will cause. 

Using I beam the flange directly behind your dies will be maybe 4-6" wide and will put the dies far enough away to miss easily which ever way your using them. 

The differences in the build plans isn't fundamentally different they're just adjustments to match the steel and your uses. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[rls1160]

Thank you Frosty and No Good With Usernames (NGWU) for the insights. I like the downward moving ram, it just seems proper and intuitive to how one works and being able to see how your moving the metal.  i may be over thinking it but its just very odd to me.

Frosty does the plan for the 24 ton press call for using the W14x38 H beam as the main pedestal support becuse of the larger ram, higher pump and pressures to resist twisting, or is it just a different design concept to acommodate downward versus upward piston movement?

The book includes force and safety ratings for beam and structural members alobg with ram cylinder pressurs as a guide.

With prooer application of the information it looks like one could make some modifications and maintain safe limits.

Thank you,

Rick

 

[Frosty]

I haven't looked at the plans but using 14", 38lb H beam for a lousy 20 tons offset a few inches off center is serious overkill. 

How far from the flange are the centers of the ram mounting pins? What if any structure are the ears in the plans? Ears being the plates the ram pin slides through.  Of course if you use a ram that doesn't have a hinge mount you can bolt it directly to the frame through a shelf type bracket. This has advantages and disadvantages of course but it makes it easier to keep the dies going straight. 

How far do the plans call for the ram's rod to be from the post? 

You know just moving the anvil and ram farther from the H beam post would be a really easy way to give you clearance for long stock to pass. 

In truth I'm mostly wasting both out time speculating without being able to see the plans. I know how I'd build one but that doesn't do you much if any good.

Frosty The Lucky.