Long term project advice

[Mike04]

Please excuse my poor drawing ability, these are 2 designs i have for a small fence around our trash bin area. Mostly just decoration and something for me to focus on making. Lots of relatively simple and repetitive parts to practice forging along with some new techniques in joining to practice. I am expecting a high failure rate but looking forward to the challenge. Its going to be about 4ft high to the horizontal and will enclose about a 4x8 rectangle on three sides. 2 short sides and one long side.

Which design do you prefer? If for a practical reason, what reason? (Might help me consider things differently for future projects)

Stock size recommendations for the different elements?

And lastly, thoughts on doing cast bronze pieces for the corners?(ive been casting off and on for a while and have a stock of copper, tin, and bronze)

Thank you all for your time and any advice you can give!

 

[anvil]

The design choice is yours, or yours and your significant other if ya got one. 

As for material, simply said, 1/2" sq pickets works for most railings. Cap rail should be comfortable in the hand so somewhere around 1/2" or 3/8" by 1-1/2" feels good. Bottom rail can be 1/2"x1-1/4" or so. I like the bottom stringer to be heavier(thicker) than the cap rail The scrolls look good basically if 1/4"x 3/4 and 1" wide. Newel posts,,, the verticals,should be a bit bigger than the cap and bottom rails and square looks good. Kinda sorta the bigger the better. 

I think of the weights of the elements to represent lines of different weights in drawings. Differing weights create cool points of interest. 

The dog bars,,, the short pickets at the bottom can be a problem, depending on your situation. They may snag on something and bend. 

As far as layout, I suggest you read up on the golden mean. Its a proportion that is appealing. It works for most any proportion such as the length of those short boy pickets with respect to your overall railing design. 

Also check out the COSIRA series of books. They are easy to find on line and are, I believe free. 

A lot of "proper" weight of material, from the client/design point of view has to do with psychology,,, the psychology of what feels secure and safe. As an example, Light and flimsy creates a feeling that the rail will collapse.
 

I could prolly write another dozen or so pages on this, but this should get you going. 

Heres hoping you use this as a way to learn traditional joinery such as tenons, collars, rivets, champfered edges etc. 

 

[Mike04]

Thank you for your thoughtful response and the info on some books to check out! Ill definitely look into those.

I might just find one that i like and try to make a copy of it to try and get the feel of how it all works together. 

The joinery part was one reason i wanted to do this project!

Thanks again

[anvil]

Enjoy! for me the joinery is the best part

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

3 hours ago, anvil said:

COSIRA series of books

They are available on the BAM site as free downloads. Very good series of books & catalog of drawings. BAM, Blacksmiths Association of Missouri

[JHCC]

Peter Parkinson's book "The Artist Blacksmith" and Robert Thomas's "The Art and Craft of the Blacksmith" have some very good discussion about what makes a good design in ironwork. The book "By Hand and Eye" (while written initially for woodworkers) also gives some excellent advice for understanding proportions and visual rhythm.

[Mike04]

Thanks for the link and more recommendations. Just downloaded the COSIRA series and went ahead and got the practical blacksmith series too. Ill start looking for hard copies too

[anvil]

There are many good how to books on blacksmithing so here are two of my favorites. 

"Plane and Ornamental Forging" by Ernst Schwartzkopf. This is a little known gem. It was the high school curriculum for NYC back at the turn of the last century,, 1916. Its the book that Frank Turley used as his primary reference for his class. It truly covers from the simple to the sublime.

"The Blacksmiths Cookbook" by Francis Whitaker. This book is a selection of techniques used by Francis Whitaker. Do a google search on both authors for more info. Between the two of them they prolly have done more to bring blacksmithing as we know it to the contemporary smiths of the day. 

[BillyBones]

One thing that should be brought up about this, lay out. Get good precise measurements on a lay out that is to scale.  Write down everything. Daniel Moss did a good video a while back about lay outs and sketching your idea. 

I have never done full on railing but i have done wood railing with iron highlights. Just from this little bit of experience when you say long term project that is what it will be. 

Roy at Christ Centered Ironworks did a good video last week i think about where to put and how to make scrolls look organic as well. 

Anyway good luck on your project. Keep us up to date. Oh and cast bronze i think would look great on it. 

[Frosty]

My only contribution to the so far excellent advice is to do your concept sketches on Graph paper. The 1/4" grid provides straight horizontal and vertical lines that help keep you from wracking the sketch, any tapers, planes, etc. are deliberate and more easily controlled. The grid gives you reference points allowing you to scale the sketch up or down with simple methods. 

If you sketch the front of a house and porch on graph paper it lets you scale and proportion your railing sketches to THE installation BEFORE you begin the project. 

Frosty The Lucky

[ThomasPowers]

Brass/Bronze will really increase the possibility of theft by scrappers as it scraps for a lot more money than steel!

[Rojo Pedro]

Good info in this post. Thanks for sharing

 

[Mike04]

Started reading through some of the resources suggested, lots of good information. I am definitely going to do some more accurate drawings on graph paper, trying to figure out how much steel of each size ill need (plus a good bit for pieces that go in the pile) and get an idea of prices for it.

Luckily for us, we dont live in an area to worry about scrappers, mostly just raccoons and opossums where we are

Thanks again to anvil for the great detailed response to start and to everyone else for the references and suggestions!

[anvil]

I do a full size drawing on my layout table, and from that drawing, I figure my cut list and layout stick. When you get there, I'm pretty good at figuring comparative weights to get to your parent stock. Think drawing a taper and needing to know what dimension and length you need to get there from what parent stock you choose to use. Heres an example of a full size drawing that I work from. It looks kinda chaotic, but every thing I need is there for me to do the job. I transfer this to paper and save it for posterity. I can, from this table drawing make an identical match anytime I may need.

[Steve Sells]

Be aware there are legal regulations as to spacing  between rails,  this is for preventing children getting trapped...

[George N. M.]

Rail spacing would be a local or state regulation and would vary depending on what building code edition has been adopted.  If a person has building codes where they live (not everywhere does, the more urban you are the more likely it is) they should call the local building department or equivalent and check to see if there is a regulation and what is it.  It may apply to wooden picket fences, premade panels, and our wrought metal versions. 

Some places also have restrictions on the height of fences and may require a building permit and require an inspection.  In the county where I worked as County Attorney the longest the restriction in residential areas for fences was 4' on the front of the property and 6' on the sides and back.  I think this is the most common height restriction.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[gewoon ik]

Anvil, can you point me to the chaos on your drawing?

To me they look nice and clear.

My drawings (okok it is for simpeler stuff still) look a lot worse than yours.

[anvil]

Lol, if you can understand my drawings, I'd better revise them!!!  

 

[BillyBones]

George, to add to what you say if you go to the building inspectors office they will many times print out for you what the codes are. And give you way more info than what you asked for. When i built my deck they printed out about 30 pages for me that even had stuff about chimneys in it.