Just a Grill of Dirt (JAGOD) - charcoal troubleshooting

[Shainarue]

Pictures attached: front view of new design in-use; sketch of backside view with hair dryer; sketch of backside view with hand pump

After one very frustrating & unsuccessful forging attempt with anthracite, I've already changed the JAGOD design and tried again with just charcoal. Then I couldn't figure out the fire for charcoal! I knew from comments on here that charcoal didn't need as much air so I offset the hair dryer. It didn't seem to be getting hot so I put the pipe back direct to the blower and got it going. Any time I offset the dryer, the charcoal would lose heat. I realize that sounds obvious - as air is what makes the heat - but I thought since the hair dryer was supposedly too much air for charcoal that I could just offset the blower to the pipe when I wanted it hot and then switch it off when I didn't have stock in the fire. Didn't seem to work for me.

That said, keeping it directly to the pipe seemed like too much air. It did get it burning hot but it also was maybe blowing the heat past my work piece. I also tried keeping it direct to pipe but hair dryer on low, which was better than offset but still not great. Toward the end of my session, a ton of ash had collected in the bottom which took me way too long to figure out that was what was blocking the air. Since the JAGOD doesn't have an ash dump, is my only option here to rake out all the charcoal, shovel out the ashes, rake the charcoal back in and restart the fire? If so, then is there a trick to figuring out when that's needed (before I waste time of seeing the stock isn't heating)? I had assumed that was just something I'd be doing before each start but didn't realize I'd need to do it during a session as well.

It was a very frustrating 3 hour evening because in the end, I didn't have anything to show for it. I got four good heats on the rod I was working with - and since I'm still very new to this, I am not getting far with each heat, lol. I was hoping to forge a can tab opener. I got as far as step one: flatten 8" of 3/8 round. Step 2 is to offset about 1 1/4 from end but that's when I wasn't able to get the (thin flattened) metal glowing anymore so that's all I've got done so far - another flattened bit of steel. Yes, THREE hours to produce an 8" piece of flattened 3/8 (sigh) I guess practice is practice though, right? 

I found a double-action hand pump on Marketplace for $5 so I have that now and I'm going to get that attached in place of the hair dryer to see if I can control it better (and hopefully also reduce how quickly ash builds up).

If my heat is going correctly, how long *should* it take for a 3/8 round rod to come to heat from "cold"? And how long to come to re-heat (after hammering)? I feel like I'm doing a LOT of waiting in between hammerings (I spent that time splitting wood to use for future kindling as I am NOT patient enough to just stand there and wait, lol) and I don't remember it taking as long on the gas forge I used in classes. 

Oh - and I haven't seen anyone else mention this but with both anthracite & charcoal, I get bits of stuff collecting inside the tuyere pipe. Eventually that stuff builds up and restricts air flow. Logic told me that I probably just needed a short burst of stronger air to blow it out - but even on high it wasn't moving. 

[Frosty]

The problem with ash and clinker blocking your Tuyere is you made it a bottom blast. Charcoal especially works better with a side blast. Coal in a bottom blast forge requires a fire grate to prevent clinker from falling into and blocking the air flow. It will also require an ash trap so what ash and junk that passes through the air grate can fall past the air supply and collect below the air stream where it's out of the way.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your drawings but the problems fit my evaluation.

Frosty The Lucky.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Here’s some pictures of ash gates an dumps/dumps on some of my forges

[Shainarue]

I can see now how the sketch looks like it's a bottom blast but it's not. It's a side blast. The hole comes out the back of the grill and I was trying to draw the pipe so it looked like it was coming straight out.

There's about 2" from the pipe to the bottom of the dirt.

[Frosty]

It shouldn't be getting blocked burning charcoal. Burning anthracite though will have you raking clinker out regularly though. What do you use for a fire rake? 

drawing the end of a piece of rod width ways and bending it 90* in a gentle curve / hook is good for scraping crud from the bottom of the forge. You don't have a bottom blast so you don't need a pointy end to clear the fire grate so leaving the end blunt with what rounding happens when you flatten it won't cut scars in the sides of the fire trench.

Don't make the hook (rake) as wide as the fire trench so you can maneuver it without digging holes in the forge, a couple inches usually does the job fine. They're good for pushing fuel around, raking charcoal / coal into or away from the heart of the fire, picking clinker, etc. 

Its a really versatile fire tool, heck one is the only fire tool by our wood stove.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

Um, my "rake" is just a piece of thick flat steel bar with a mitered end and a bolt welded on which happened to be in the bucket of scrap that I started this adventure with,  lol

I will make a rake as you described. 

So here's my list for Thursday so far:

* attach hand pump in place of hair dryer

* finish can tab opener

* if things are going well, make the rake

 

I know I started with a lot of questions so I'll reask just this one:

If my heat is going correctly, how long *should* it take for a 3/8 round rod to come to heat from "cold" in a charcoal forge with side blast air from hand pump? And how long to come to re-heat (after hammering)?

[Frosty]

3/8" round would come to forging temp in around 1 minute in my forge and welding temp shortly after. But that's my single nozzle propane shop forge. In NARB it'd take a couple minutes to forging temp and maybe half again to welding temp.

How long in your charcoal forge? I don't know, I can't use it and tending a fire is dependent on factors from forge design, fuel size, air supply and the fire tender's experience. A well laid charcoal fire should heat steel that small in under a minute easy. If you add half again to figure welding temp you won't be too far off.

The thing is fire management is an acquired skill, it takes practice. A mentor really helps but all we can so is suggest and point out mistakes IF we see or read about them. 

I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with your forge though I would've shaped the trench differently and put the tuyere higher but that doesn't mean you got it wrong. I don't do much forging with charcoal or coal but I can do the dance. For solid fuel fires I like to keep it as small as I can and still provide a good depth of coals surrounding the work. By depth of coals I'm referring to how much burning coals surround the work. For 1/2" square or round I like my fire to be a max 3" ball of coals. I call that the heart, it's the main heat engine of the machine. There has to be enough fuel below or between the work and tuyere to consume all the oxygen. Just beyond that point is the real heart, the zone of max temperature. The burning coals on the far side are more insulation than actually burning. In a green coal fire just beyond the 3" ball the coal is coking, the heat is driving off the volatiles and unwanted elements like sulfur and phosphorous. It also provides insulation keeping heat from just venting to space.

So, for working the size stock you are right now, my trench would be maybe 4" across to allow for the next size up or formed shapes. I'd have the tuyere maybe 1" higher but I'd try the more narrow trench before changing the tuyere. Making it a little more narrow might tickle my fancy and work for what I needed. 

Then I don't use a firepot unless that's all there is. I prefer a "Duck's Nest" forge. It's basically a clayed pan forge with a slight depression down to the air grate maybe 1" - 1/2" deep. I lay fire brick on edge around it to make the fire the shape and size I need. Often I use 2 on edge on opposite sides of the air grate making a trench. Other times 3 sides and occasionally I'll make a ring for a large fire. 

That's just me though.

Whatever happens don't give up, it will come to you. You'll have that head slapping moment and you'll get it, look back and wonder about the early times. Honest, we've all been there.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

No worries - I'm not the giving up type! All the frustrations just make me want to dig in more until it's not frustrating anymore. I will try to remember to take a picture of it empty and show measurements when I clean it out for a new fire on Thursday. I took advice from this forum while creating it - mostly Charles if I recall correctly - but I might have crossed my own wires hopping between coal & charcoal setups.

I am attending a BAM meeting this Saturday and if I can get out of my head and get past the social anxieties I tend to have then I'll definitely ask someone if they'd be willing to take the time/fuel to show me. As you say, a mentor is the best way toward learning. I'm also picking up blacksmithing coal there so I'll have that on hand to learn with as well. 

[Frosty]

Good luck on that, I've been playing around the anvil for close to 50 years and have frustrating experiences pretty frequently. It's part of the learning endless curve. That's different than not having anything work for you when you're just starting out though and I try to see that doesn't happen. 

Charles has more experience with the JABOD than I do, I forged with charcoal under different circumstances. I had to make a propane forge to work at home, open fires made the neighbors in the trailer park really nervous. Most of my charcoal smithing was in a campfire after work on field jobs. 

Pick one fuel and stick with it, I suggest charcoal, anthracite is hard to use when you have experience with coal let alone as a beginner. Approach this like basic trouble shooting make one change at a time, try it out and make notes. Remember this isn't a precision craft, it's mostly by eye and feel, so is fire management. 

Don't bank up charcoal or it WILL ALL catch fire and burn even if it isn't getting blast. If you rake fresh charcoal in on top of the work it will catch above the work. If you rake it in from one end of the trench it burns under and around the work. Don't bank it in the trench though, dump it in a a scoop at a time a little away from the fire in the trench and rake it in. That is not THE way to to tend a charcoal fire, it's ONE way and very similar to how I managed forging in camp fires.  Ideally I set up a forge fire and shoveled coals out of the camp fire but every site was different.

I'd be surprised if there aren't vets at the BAM meeting. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a member who understands PTSD and can work with you. We have a number of vets who took up smithing as therapy. Blacksmiths are mostly good folk and more than willing to help.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Ok, so I build side blast forges thus. From the hearth I make a trench 5” or so deep with the bottom of the tuyere pipe 1” off the floor of the trench. The trench is 4” wide and sloped about 45 deg. From the ends with the tuyere coming in the strait side. 
then I build walls on each side about 4” tall. This creates the same effect of banking coal. It burns hard and soft coal as well as charcoal. 

This might help. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Now if you don’t have a reducer (funnel) to catch the air from the hair drier it’s hard to get enough air down the small tuyere. 
another problem pearls have is impatience. If you are forging steel that likes yellow heat a white hot fire is to hot. It burns fuel to fast and will, if your inattentive burn your steel. 
the first heat is like roasting the perfect marshmello. Slowly tossed till the outside is golden brown and the middle is gooey. The second heat always goes faster.

now in my forges, I can burn hard coal with an electric bed pump (I can melt hard fire brick if I don’t throttle it back. I use a “T” and a ball valve. Depending on the fuel and what I am working on it may be with the strait branch inline or a Eros the tuyere. 
the great thing about the JABOD forge is it only costs time to reconfigure it. Experiment till it works for you. I know what works for me and can build one and have it going in under an hour, leg hole included!

[Shainarue]

I had a few minutes to pull out the grill and show the backside. I'm changing this to the hand pump tomorrow but just thought I'd show it anyway.  I tried pics but video was easier to demonstrate. 

https://youtu.be/FldA1r_S5Gc

[Shainarue]

Here's the pics of it empty. Tonight went much better with the hand pump and charcoal. I'll post my super crappy projects in the other topic,  lol

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Might want to pack some clay around the tuyere pipe or pull the pipe back into the clay. It helps to reduce the amount of the pipe melting/burning with a hot fire.

[Shainarue]

Oh also,  I used up all of the charcoal and I don't have a burn barrel yet so if I want to use it again tomorrow then I'll need to use the anthracite again. I'm thinking I'll keep the hand pump and just use the torch to relight it if it goes out while I am hammering. 

I really want to try again on the first project because it is not something I'm proud of, lol

[ThomasPowers]

Or just use wood and let it coal as it burns down into the trench.  I don't like the design of the whitlox forge but it does demonstrate using wood directly.  I prefer to use a raised firepit near my forge, (down wind!) and just transfer hot coals as needed.

[Shainarue]

I used the forge with anthracite today with the hand pump and was able to keep getting the metal hot for the full 3 hours I was out there! My arms are a bit tired from all the pumping but I was just pleased as punch that it kept going! 

[Frosty]

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Wish we had a thumbs up emoji.

[Frosty]

b  Thumbs up and   p  Thumbs down its a hassle but . . . I'd like to have a "roll eyes" emogi myself. Some ideas and statements . . . Nevermind.

Frosty The Lucky.