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A new EZ burner maybe


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Here's my latest twist on Ron's classic EZ burner..... 

1/8"x 4" sch 80 pipe nipple

0.8mm mig contact tip 

1/8" pipe cap 

1 1/2" - 3/4" bell reducer 

3/4" - 1/2" "rigid conduit reducer bushing" 

1/2" X 6" (measure 4" including 1 threaded end and discard the rest 

The nozzle is a piece of 3/4" tac welded to a 3/4" merchant coupler ie straight thread with a little set screw

 

I run my 1/8" nipple/fuel rail through bell centered at the bottom of the exterior lip with a set screw on either side to secure the fuel rail. I drill and tap the fuel rail to take the mig tip. I trim some threads off the mig tip and then trim enough off the tip so you can just spin it around inside the opening. The graphite refill is a 0.7mm so if you bump it one way than the other you can zero in on straight, I don't have water in my shop to do the water jet test but this seems to get me close. 

One you've confirmed your jet is straight, centered, sealed etc then hit it with a tac weld or just rely on the set screw. 

A choke plate can be added by drilling and tapping a strip of 3/8" flat bar, utilize the set screws and holes to secure the flat bar then turn down the center bolt and it'll lock against the fuel rail and help secure it if you didn't tac weld it. 

 

Pictures lots of pictures coming really soon. 

 

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This is the conduit reducer bushing, note the rolled edge where the throat would be. The tip of the contact tip is 1/2" from the initial rolled edge of the bushing, so 1/2" from orifice to throat/narrowest part. 

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This is with on 1/2 " burner 

 

 

 

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The last pic is with the two 1/2" burner's and there is just too much flame with two of these especially with the 0.8mm instead of the 0.023 I had in originaly. I may go back to the 0.023 depending on the forge they are going into. 

This double burner forge will be getting two of my micro burners hopefully in the next week here. 

The school house forge has the 0.023 (0.6mm) orifice .

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2 hours ago, Trevor84 said:

1/2" X 6" (measure 4" including 1 threaded end and discard the rest 

The nozzle is a piece of 3/4" tac welded to a 3/4" merchant coupler ie straight thread with a little set screw

½" x 6" pipe nipple, I presume.  Please post image detail of this element with nozzle, unless I have simply missed it.  Fine presentation, and good to know that the Blue People are looking out for you...

Robert Taylor

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2 hours ago, Trevor84 said:

1/2" X 6" (measure 4" including 1 threaded end and discard the rest 

Maybe an easier way to say it would be:

Screw the 1/2"x6" pipe nipple into the rigid conduit reducer bushing, then measure from the end/top of the bushing down 4" and cut off nice and smooth. The bushing and the pipe nipple together should be consider "mixing tube". So if you separate the two your pipe nipple will be less than 4" by a scooch. 

 

The top side of the bushing is the throat.... The measurement from the tip of the contact tip to the throat  on mine is 1/2". 

Oh another addition.... At the base of the bell reducer I drilled and tapped for a set screw, now you can adjust the mixing tube/throat up and down about 3/8"-1/2"and tighten the screw against the outside of the bushing. 

 

I'm going to try and sketch something up because I'm kurfufelingmy my thoughts.

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Actually a MIG for 0.023" welding wire is on the large side for a 1/2" pipe as mixing tube; they are suppose to have a 0.031" orifice, but some of them are 0.033". I prefer a 0.028" gas orifice size. 

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I've got a few different brands of contact tips some quite different I  size others seem to be quite close to the advertised size at least according to the torch tip cleaners. I have used the torch tip cleaners closest by the thousands and end up with 0.025, 0.031, 0.035. Now I could be wrong because I'm using $30 digital vernier calipers but I figure if the caliper says the tip cleaners a certain size and I can't get the next size up into the hole ie the torch tip cleaner that I've measured at 0.030 won't fit in the 0.023 contact tip. 

 

Ughh it sounds like I'm arguing I think..... I'm only sharing observations.... The 0.8mm and the 0.023 contact tips were el'cheepos so for me they're great that they're accurate on the flip side they'd probably jam like crazy at the slightest build up when used for welding

 

Is there a better way to verify the actual orifice diameter?

Again I used the vernier to confirm the thickness of the torch tip cleaner then tried sliding the cleaner into the contact tips using a drilling motion and calling its diameter whatever the largest tip cleaner fit. (clear as mud right) 

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Sitting here re reading your comment about orifices Mikey and looking at my pictures and drinking coffee and making sure the cat doesn't start running or going upstairs....

Anyway the last two burners I made I used the 0.8mm contact tips like in these picture's above, I tried tge two together inside that forge that was belching fire. There was too much air and fuel for the chamber so I ran with one of the burners. 

I start this thread, write out instructions, post pictures and seen the original burners with the great flames used the 0.023 tips so I deleted those photos and continued posting pics. Not clueing into the mix up I just made I respond to Mike to confirm the size of the hole in the contact tip...... It doesn't matter whether I measured an accurate 0.8mm and it was actually 0.8mm or 0.85mm both are way too big for a half inch mixing tube (insert face palm) 

The 0.025 torch tip cleaner will slip into the 0.023 contact tip smoothly without much wiggle at all. Soooo I'll turn these burner heads into simple "3/4" burners" and ditch the fancy reducer bushing. 

I'm getting decent at drilling straight through the rim of the bell reducer so I'll whip up a couple more with the 0.023 contact tips again. So I get these beauties again. 

Yes of course my fuel rail (the 1/8" nipple is welded in place and the contact tip seals with jb weld  ;-) 

(oh and the Charlie cat is 16 years old and I can barely keep up to him, he is recovering from a compressed nerve from sitting weird all doped up at the vet. His front leg had no feeling or control so when he'd walk the foot would roll in and he'd collapse on the top of the foot, it looked like a shattered ankle at first..... oOps sorry wrong page for that but geez my heart was going to blow if I didn't tell someone :( it's been a long couple days watching him recover, I'd rather stick my hand in the forge than watch that again) 

 

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The 0.025 torch tip cleaner will slip into the 0.023 contact tip smoothly without much wiggle at all. Soooo I'll turn these burner heads into simple "3/4" burners" and ditch the fancy reducer bushing. 

No ditch the reducer!!! You're on the right path there. What you do want to do is add a nut to the threaded gas tube, to keep it at right angles. Don't worry about air flow; that is all happening closer to the outer regions of the reducer. I am watching you do several things I did, which all worked out just fine. Keep on keeping on. You're doing well.

We have a sixteen year old cat with different leg problems. The vet thinks he has lung cancer too. It's hard to watch a pet suffer. But it's nearly summer; they wait for ever for summer to come again :)

Nice flame in the last photo.

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Describing how you check orifice sizes and calibrate your gauges isn't arguing. Using calipers to check the dia. of the torch files you have is common sense IF you want precise numbers. You're doing the same thing Mike and I did and occasionally still do. 

I have to agree with Mike. Trying to adapt a 3/4" burner to operate as a 1/2" burner isn't a good use of your time. Sure it can be done, as you've shown but why? Making a 1/2" burner from the start means you can skip manufacturing the parts necessary to convert something that was perfectly happy before. Not to mention having to tune the less than ideal conversion.

Back in the day when I was playing with linear burners like Ron's I took a different route. I built an arch that welded to the outside of the intake bell and used a piece of threaded lamp rod with the mig tip threaded into the end. This arrangement allowed my to adjust the depth of the jet in the bell and mount the choke plate directly to the lamp rod. 

As I worked out: using a choke means you don't tune by the jet position so the lamp rod doesn't need to turn itself. Using a choke means you use a smaller jet than optimum and tune it by restricting the intake air. And it's a more demanding burner to build so I changed direction and started playing with jet ejectors. 

That's about when Ron and I parted ways where burner design is concerned. We disagreed but remained friends even if we don't talk much anymore. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

 

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I don't think he talks to anyone much anymore. He want through his bad times, and then worse times, and then heavy changes back when you and I thought we were in good shape. It comes to us all, and everyone feels like the ground just dropped out from under us...but that is tell yet to come :ph34r:

Wow; that was nineteen years back. Where does the time go?

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12 hours ago, Trevor84 said:

 it's been a long couple days watching him recover,

I am way behind on this thread. But let me say that we lost our cat of 8 years, plus three prior to our acquaintance.  That was March 26. People around these parts are quite fond of our aminal companions,  you are in good company, methinks...

Robert and Sheila Taylor

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We recently had to have a cat put down and to make it worse; our Daughter the Veterinarian had to do it!   That cat had been with us for 1/3 of her life!  Morticia is gone and Gomez still wanders around meowing for her.

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Robert geez 8yrs so young, I'm sorry for you loss:(

Mike, you are so right they do love summer! 

 I may be missing something in my description or I labeled the diagram incorrectly I'm thinking...... There is no lamp rod, the threaded rod at the top of the sketch is jut there to hold the choke plate, what I am calling the fuel rail is still the classic 1/8" nipple that mounts in the opening of the intake horizontally. Made sure they were dead straight then tac welded in place after using jbweld to seal the mig contact tip in place. So downside the fuel delivery is locked in place, upside the fuel deliver is locked..... The only thing I can adjust is the depth of the bushing "throat".

 

I am happy with the alignment of the jets in these two but if the 0.8mm flows too much fuel for the half inch pipes I'm kind of limited on options for adjustments. If I swap out the half inch nipple / bushing for a 6"x3/4" it should mix a bit better and reduce that dragon breathe. 

(the last pic that is really nice is a burner like these but using the. 0.023.... The pic of the forge with heavy dragon breathe is using burners that have the 0.8mm tip)

 

If it seems like I am jumping burner to burner it is because I have a couple on the go, I have a couple made with the 0.023 and a couple with the 0.8mm tips (kind of screw up's). I also have two more micro burners on the go etc..... 

Jery, what you say about the choke is one of those tid bits I really utilize!

With choke: build for lean and speed and choke to get neutral 

No choke...... Build it right and tune it to the forge. 

(kind of thing) 

 

I'm hoping to get to the shop in a few days and will try out a few things like plunk the 0.8mm burners into my larger "300CI minion forge" and try the micro burners in 150ci forge above. 

 

 

Oh geez Thomas at least your preciois was with ones that loved her and not a stranger. Oh man I feel bad for the other guy  they just don't understand...... 

Maybe this shows how the choke plate and fuel rail are mounted in these burners 

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Here's the minion forge, well the beginning of one. 

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I need to embellish around the eyes, maybe make them look like binoculars. 

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49 minutes ago, Trevor84 said:

I may be missing something in my description or I labeled the diagram incorrectly I'm thinking......

No; I was missing something. You're right; the threaded rod is a separate part. Your next step, will be to thread a Schedule #80 1/8" pipe nipple with 1/4-28 thread for the MIG tip, and some of its exterior with 1/8" straight (not tapered) pipe thread. Why a pipe nipple? So that you can leave tapered pipe thread on one end of it for gas fittings, such as needle valves, to be connected with.

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No; I was confusing what you did with one of my burner construction schemes. Here it is from my book notes. You may wander why I don't create a simple cross brace like yours. The answer is that I intended for the choke plate to completely close off all air after the burner is shut down.

 

One method of mounting a gas assembly on small linear burners

It is necessary for incoming air to sufficiently mix with fuel gas. A swirling motion provides the most mixing for the least drag on mixture flow. Pipe reducer fittings and other funnel shapes provide convenient ready-made forms for this purpose.

    It has been well established that the gas pipe and whatever MIG contact tip, etc. is used for a gas orifice should be axially centered in the reducer's large opening by, whatever means is convenient. BUT the devil is in the details, because how you choose to mount the gas assembly, is your first and best chance, to gain that something extra that we all want to see in the flame; don't waste it!

    Why such emphases on a “minor” detail? You have an energy budget; it's limited to the air induction that your gas orifice supplies to the gas stream, which is the burner's air induction engine. It takes energy to get air moving, and also takes energy to change air direction. So. starting that change at the same point where the motion begins, will require the least energy from your tiny budget.

    So why not install a high-power fan or compressor at the opening? How much breath is required to blow out a candle? That is about the maximum power input--at the wrong place--it takes to blow out a burner flame too. You want burner magic? It comes from CONTROL.

    There is another important factor to consider; as with a whirl pool, nearly all of the air is going to inter near the opening’s periphery. No significant air will move down the center of the entrance. So what? So, this tells you where streamlining matters, and where it doesn’t.

    Mounting a gas assembly has two facets; what is easy versus what works best. There can be no "perfect answers because, aside from tooling and skill levels, we all have our preferences; mine is maximum control of the parts being put together, having found that you get the best results for the least work, if Murphy is never given a chance to muck everything up. For burners needing a flat disc of up to 2-1/2” diameter or less, fender washers can be purchased, keeping your work at a minimum, by using only part of the instructions below. For larger openings than 2-1/2” you must completely fabricate your own part.

    So, why start with sheet metal, or a fender washer anyway? Because you begin on a flat surface, so all you need do, is avoid bending it. Use a divider (best) or compass (workable), and a prick punch, to lay out a disc of the same diameter as the outer edge of the large opening in your reducer or funnel. whether you want to silver braze, solder, screw, or glue it in position.

Drill and thread a hole in the middle of the disc for your threaded gas tube be screwed through. Mark out three roughly equal spaces for ribs between the air openings. Use the divider or compass to mark three equal spaces for the ribs. Drill 1/4" or smaller holes between the areas of the ribs and well outside the area of a lamp thread nut. Remember that there is no significant air flow in this central part of the opening, so don't shortchange yourself on material in this area.

    The ribs would be fairly narrow if you kept their lines parallel, but that isn't desirable. You want them narrower at their outer edges, and  becoming wider

toward the center of your disc. You may also cut a groove in their bottom face, and bend one side downward at a forty-five-degree angle; this will help encourage swirl in the incoming air, while helping to keep the structure rigid. You must cut the sections that angle downward small enough to fit inside the opening, leaving the rest of it still long enough to sit on the outside of the reducer or funnel. Why would you bother? To ensure that the gas tube’s mounting is diagonal with the air entrance; thus, helping to ensure that the gas assembly will remain axially true to the burner.

    The gas tube has an exterior thread, that allows it to run back and forth in a nut, or 1/2'” long brass 1/8 IP for lamp fixtures (to solder or silver braze on the mounting plate), for fine tuning burner performance.

    For people who can’t find or afford “doing things the right way,” or find all these parts and tools, there are brass pipe, steel tube, etc. that can be slid into the lamp thread from your hardware store, where it can be trapped in place with silver braze, solder, or even resin; it’s the lamp thread that has to move back and forth, for proper tuning. A nut snugged up on the inner  face of the hole in the mounting plate can keep everything tight, so that tricky solder or brazing work, is only desirable; not essential.

    You also don’t need to perfectly match up the inside of whatever you use for a gas pipe with the inside of the lamp part. Adding inner and/ or outer spacers are just fine so long as you solder, braze, or, glue them, to prevent movement between your parts. Inner spacers don’t even need to be gas tight; just the ends of the gas tube need that. Inner spacers are just there to improve flow. Even electrical tape can be used to provide an interference fit between the gas pipe and lamp thread.

    Gluing gas assembly parts? Anyone who has played around with air-fuel torch parts will have noticed that a few of them are glued together (mostly on old equipment) with some kind of black resinous substance. And anyone who has rebuilt an engine knows that gasket sealant is black and quite tough. Two and two makes…

    Thread sealant comes in hardening and non-hardening types; both kinds are resistant to vibration, and, like gasket sealant, thread sealant for fuel lines, are rated for use with petroleum products. LPG stands for liquid petroleum gas; that includes propane, butane, methane, and propylene fuels.  

 

What is an 1/8” IP thread? 1/8” IP or IPS (iron pipe, or iron pipe standard) thread dies and taps can be used to make lamp rod thread (1/8-27) on the outside of 1/8” water pipe (designated size; actual outside diameter of 1/8” pipe is .405”). This is parallel thread, and is not to be confused with the tapered 1/8” NPT (national pipe thread); it can be used on the cut off ends of schedule #80 1/8” pipe nipples, with the other end used to mount your gas fitting or needle valve to. This means that your gas jet can be easily installed on your burner, with a flat washer for a choke included. Be sure to use an "S" letter drill bit; not an "R" bit, which is recommended for tapered thread; not for parallel thread.         

    1/8” schedule #80 pipe can be directly threaded with a 1/4-27 (best) or 1/4-28 (acceptable if you’re careful) tap, to accept a MIG contact tip.

    Lamp thread tubes at your local hardware store have external 1/8-27 IPS, and internal diameters of 0.0285” that will comfortably accommodate a 1/4” O.D. gas pipe to be silver brazed, soldered, or glued in place. You will also find short tubes with internal 1/8-27 IPS thread, nuts, and flat washers in the same section.

     Lamp thread is too large for use in micro-burners. Fortunately, the same mounting scheme can be carried out by threading brass tubing and em[plying 3D printer nozzles; thus, the right heavy wall tube for smaller gas assemblies can be installed in ever smaller burners. Brass tubing is available through Amazon.com in 7mm x 5mm sizes, and in similar fractional sizes. 

 

 

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On 5/6/2022 at 8:17 PM, Mikey98118 said:

I don't think he talks to anyone much anymore.

I haven't spoken to Ron in a few years. He had a very close call, heart attack IIRC. My Sister moved to Boise a few years ago and I'd planned on visiting next time I'm down. It'd be nice to shake his hand and catch up. 

Have you noticed how much faster time flows as we get older?

Frosty The Lucky.

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Yup, I sure do.

Lets see, Ron suffered from fungal pneumonia for about six months, then I heard the school district let him know that some of his records were lost, and he would have to retake two classes to keep his teaching certificate. Later, I wasn't surprised to hear he had a heart attack. Still later I heard  his father died from a heart attack. Then, I heard he had moved to a ranch in Oregon. Don't know how much of that is true, after the pneumonia; I was still in contact with him during that. But he certainly seems to have gone through the mill.

 

And now, like us, he's old :P

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I'd heard he had to give up the horses and sold at least some of his acreage. IIRC he was thinking of moving closer to a hospital but hadn't heard more. Once serious pneumonia gets you, it's hard if not impossible to get your lung capacity back. 

Getting old sure beats the alternative. I figure with the speed medical science is advancing that if I can hold on another 10 years or so they'll be able to cure anything that can kill us that doesn't physically kill us on the spot. 

Just think for your 80th B'day you get a 25 yro body! The really cool thing is I WILL know then what I know now. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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I think that if you make it through the crises, how you take your lessons has a lot to do with survival potential. It seems like a lot of people think themselves to death. I was riding that train, but a heart attack and two major strokes, did my attitude a world of good. Every thing looks a whole lot better, now. :)

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So true Mike. There's a little monologue by Danny Devito in the second new version Jumanji movie where he talks about growing old being a privilege.  It was an eye opener for me. I've felt lucky to be alive for some time now but his little monologue made me realize I'm privileged to be alive. I've earned my aches and pains, I'm type 2 diabetic by my own behavior. Most damage is on me too. 

I think we need some dings, creaks and pains to appreciate how good being alive is. 

I've carried an organ donor card since high school and my current one has an addendum by me to use the rest for research and burn the scraps. Deb of course has say over the ashes.

If we're well enough off I'd like to donate a nice large picnic table made of something really durable and weatherly, say granite, to a public park and bury my ashes under it. The inscription on the table would be: Donated by ME:). Born. . .  died. . . Have lunch on me. I'm thinking an actual marker buried under the table might be okay, I don't know. What I'd really like is to make folks laugh after I'm gone. Even if it's a groan.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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