Imposter syndrome? Or "Fake it till you make it"?

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

 

On 5/5/2022 at 3:50 PM, Nodebt said:

Has anyone ever had their talent's abused or been taken advantage of and been helpless to do anything about

My boss is a jerk…

my pay is terrible…

And my working conditions could give an OSHA inspector a heart attack!!!

worst part is I’m self employed!

Bahahah!  

in all seriousness though,

In a past job I have been caught between needing to pay bills and a very hard place…

[George N. M.]

It is a truism that you will work harder and in worse conditions for yourself than you would for any boss.  Ask any farmer.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Lol, some of my best friends and customers are farmers!

[ThomasPowers]

Another trap here in USA is health insurance. I knows of several folks trapped in bad jobs when "preexisting conditions" was a problem,   As an Adult Onset Juvenile Diabetic that was a big issue for me until it was legislated against.  I still needed to find work at large companies or government jobs; but at least I could transfer to their health insurance when I did.

[anvil]

On 5/5/2022 at 2:50 PM, Nodebt said:

talent's abused or been taken advantage of

Yup, and every time, in hindsight, its been because I agree to do something I know I shouldn't because I assess them to be "good people\clients". Then I'm trapped by my own morality and take it in the shorts,,,, Alas, I cant seem to learn that lesson,,,  What can I say.

[Frosty]

I hear you anvil, I do that to myself too often. I've learned a strategy that works. I draw up plans based on their description and a bid price for their approval. I allow some changes, usually dimensions. I'm always amazed how many people think arm gestures and a vague name is all a person needs to make a product fit. Say porch rail. I'll send them home with the sketch and instructions to measure the indicated things and write it in the provided place on the sketch. You k now the line with arrows on each end and a space in the middle? 

I almost NEVER see them again.  and don't get burned by my own nature.

Then you get the folks who agree to a thing and price THEN start adding extras after the fact. When I had actual work orders there was a line right above the signature lines that said, "ANY changes made after finalizing are charged TIME AND MATERIALS." Don't forget, "50% payable in advance and balance due prior to delivery." "Deposits are non-refundable." I explained exactly what it meant before we signed the contract. 

That eliminated about 95% of my deadbeat clientele.  I didn't miss them, not a one. Even the few who didn't think I was serious paid eventually, they didn't get their money back nor the finished product until they crossed my palm. Check? Sure, I delivery payment which is AFTER the check clears. 

It was hard to change my generally agreeable nature and start doing that but I ended up feeling better about the folks I do work for and they treat me with much  more respect. Folks stopped adding changes too. My shop rate was right at the top of the page on the same line as Time and Materials. $75/hr. and current market. I still made changes but the client was serious about wanting them and if the rems from the project wouldn't make the change it cost a 20' stick and the rems were mine.

I did and still do freebies, 10 seconds to weld a stool leg, sharpen a knife, lawn mower blade, etc. are pure PR and I LIKE helping people. I didn't have to change my nature that much. I also LOVE the look on people's faces when they find out I sharpened their shovel. First look is amazement at the goofy guy but after a while they ask me to sharpen their shovel again because its half the work using a sharp one. Dad always told me, "If it has a blade it's supposed to be sharp."

A sharp hoe is a joy to kill weeds with.

Anyway, I feel ya, Anvil.

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

Actually it didn't happen with my blacksmithing. My bid process is very similar to yours with the addition of a sample piece. My clients know I charge an arbitrary 10% for design. This ends with a good set of drawings and a full size sample piece. I usually include details that I'm challenged to learn, so these are included in the sample. Lol, thats where I figure out how to do and bid them. My learning. If they accept the bid, design is included, if not I keep the sample and all drawings and they pay 10% of the bid. If they don't accept and don't pay, my personal choice is not to contest it and charge the sample to my learning and all drawings have the circle "C"  and a date, a poor mans copyright. In my opinion, its never worth litigation unless we mere mortal craftsmen happen to have a bored lawyer on retainer. However, I've never had a job refused when I get to that point, so its redundant.

However,,, there was a very fine log house that I built on my property with my logs,,, and an ex best friend and a contract,,,     And a lot of iron,,, finest project I've ever done. 

[Frosty]

I'm not a professional blacksmith, all I sell is at demos and mostly falls in the under $20 and fits in a pocket category. Though there a few exceptions. I was a trained and certified welder fabricator so samples didn't happen very often but I had examples of my work I can show. Preliminary sketches were on graph paper and if necessary I produced proper dimensioned 3 view drawings. Not real "blueprints," having them printed cost too much even in the day. 

One of the things I made out quite well making, were car trailers. From the time I pulled out of the steel yard to the time I rolled it out of the shop to get painted typically ran me under 6hrs. Tandem axles, electric brakes, lights, wired, ready to license and connect to your tow vehicle. My frames and axles were accurate to 1/64" square and true. Rails were extra but not a lot. Late 70s early 80s dollars, materials and $1,000.

I stopped putting my name on them when I found out the manufacturer was liable for failure even if some knucklehead put a D 4 on a 7,000lb car hauler. Happily DMV didn't ask for ID when I registered and licensed them as a Dealer. They were officially made by, "Jo Trailers." It's jo trailer now!

We did different work with some overlap of course.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[rockstar.esq]

I think it's a good thing that a lot of working people want to operate on a principle of good faith, mutual respect, and honest value.  Unfortunately, a lot of those working people end up feeling constrained by their nature when it comes to striking a deal with their client.

We've all seen or heard about situations where clients don't understand what drives costs, affects value, or defines their scope of work.  Efforts to "teach the client" often hinge on skills that have little overlap with whatever's being bought or sold.  Sadly, many deals fall through because so many clients default to assuming that anything they don't understand about their project is easy, fast, and free.

It's my opinion that there is one thing each side could do which would result in better outcomes for all concerned.  

Clients could define their budget.  

Contractors could provide rough running costs for similar work.

This doesn't happen for two popular reasons which apply equally to both sides of the deal;

#1. They don't want to admit that they don't know.

#2. They don't trust the other party enough to give them trust-building information.

Why do we choose to play expensive guessing games with "free" quotes, or complementary design in hopes that everything will fall into place such that both parties are getting a good deal?

 

[ThomasPowers]

Not only in "contracting"  when I was doing IT for a University department I could never get them to tell me what the budget was so I could implement an upgrade plan for old non-maintained servers.   It was wait until something breaks and then we'll think about replacing it---not the cheapest way to go!

[George N. M.]

I used to work at a flourite mine and mill in Colorado which had the same attitude: "Run it till it breaks, then fix it for the lowest possible cost, and if it can't be fixed replace it with the cheapest used item."  This was in the mine.  The mill had a smarter maintenance program.  They could have saved a bundle if they had hired one maintenance guy to go around with a grease gun and a wrench and lubricate and tighten things on a weekly basis.  They would have paid for his salary many times over.  A classic case of "penny wise and pound foolish."

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

I think the rockstar hit it on the nose. To support my opinion I refer you to the "Dunning Kruger Effect." It's not like they discovered the syndrome they just did a very good job of describing it in a paper and so the "effect" carries their names.

It's human nature that our estimation of our ability at a task is in inverse proportional to our actual knowledge and skill. The less we know the better we think we are at "it."

The effect carries over to other's jobs so the guys making decisions in the front office are unlikely to have a clue about what and how things work on the shop floor. I ran into this constantly working for the state. I may have been a driller but I was also the only trained and certified welder fabricator on the crew, the heavy duty shop often called to get my advice about structural repairs on the drill rigs. However the guys in our office; Headquarters Materials, Geology section, bridges and foundations, typically thought all I did was get some steel and weld it together. These guys are bridge ENGINEERS, their jobs required they hold at least a bachelors in both Geology and Engineering. A bridge engineer repeatedly described what I did in the shop as getting some steel and welding it together, usually with wild arm gestures.

One especially carefully referred to me repeatedly as a "laborer." I was an, operating engineer, welder/fabricator and general roust about. They had no idea what I did all day in the shop or how many years I went to school to learn my trades. The state materials engineer was shocked when I told but he'd just made a rather disparaging remark about me just being a laborer in front of a group of folks in the office,, so I publicly slapped him down. He was a good bridge design engineer but his job had zero to do with actually constructing a bridge outside some broad parameters. 

So, not knowing anything about what was involved in maintaining and repairing a drill rig or building the specialized ancillary equipment necessary they grossly underestimated the education and skill required. Normal human thinking.

Dunning Kruger illustrates exactly why the management theory is designed to fail. Oh not on purpose but it was developed by people who didn't know how to do real work and so justified the value of their own abilities. Minimal and not at all related to the work being done by the companies they were running. 

Eventually I stopped holding it against them, I suffer the same thing myself, though realizing I do I try to NOT underestimate others nor overestimate myself. It's not easy, I've done it right here I don't know how many times and publicly. <sigh> 

And THAT is what I think on this page of the discussion, for what it's worth.

Frosty The Lucky.

[MerlincMan]

Owing to the presence of two names that I recognize, and a topic that eats at me - in addition to the direction the topic has taken - I thought I might join the conversation.

It's funny because currently I am delaying the putting of antifreeze into my motie (2007 KLR 650 with the requisite farkles  )

Why is this funny? I very much like my motorcycle, and I very much fear my motorcycle. Simultaneous difficulties! Generally I have confidence in my understanding of machines, and my ability to poke at a problem until one of two things happen: I fix it, or I've ruined it beyond reasonable repair (I say reasonable because most everything built can be repaired, but whether or not said repair would be an absurdity is the real question.)

Too many times in my effort to maintain "Careful" as a VERB, I've heard that horrible snap, felt that dreadful and sudden loss of resistance, or the worst - when the ill-conceived use of Phillips-Head results in a putty-like feeling, rather than the pleasant pop of a screw doing 1/2 of what it was "designed" to do. I was in my 30's before I learned that Phillips is actually supposed to cam-out - making it a BAD choice for many mission critical applications (LONG LIVE THE SOCKET HEAD CAP SCREW!).

Anyway, I have to laugh at the realization in one form that one of my preferred fictional characters is an "Apprentice" Blacksmith who worries so much about his own strength that he soft-hands things that require some brute - and another character mocks his claim of being an Apprentice when he is so clearly a Journeyman.

I have broken too much - much too much - oh, so much. Sometimes, things break and I can only think "WHAT?!?". So, to work on Motie is an exercise in fear of the expense of breaking something, versus the extended time of thinking through something WAAYYYY too much to alleviate that fear. KLR has a plastic guard over a plastic coolant tank, that must be partially removed to fill - and it's held in place with Phillips 

Worst part about that is that I know 90% (real experience) of the time, it'll be just fine. That 10% scares the xxxx out of me.

Why am I so timid?

At the moment I've got a Client's machine sitting on my bench. The design for the machine couldn't be any more straight-forward, and it's my design. Worse, it's my first contract "out-there" all alone and responsible for it. I spent 20, 25 years here and there with good bosses and horrible bosses, good teachers and "What, teach?".... It took forever, but I finally got the resources and the courage to step out and....

The machine doesn't work, I broke an expensive part for it (repaired, but ugly), and the client is really understanding but now is thinking of bringing in an "Engineering Firm" to help.

Imposter? Have a friendly and understanding client bring in another firm to assist with your work. Then you know the feeling of being an imposter.

Simultaneous in my Motie, where I don't want to break it, will probably break it, will probably survive and move on to other things - I've never crashed on my motorcycle.

I've had my Motie endorsement for a long time. I wear all the crazy gear, even when it threatens heat-stroke. I've forgotten the kickstand twice (always a good one), and I've been in some weird situations that were (usually) my own making - but I've never gone down. 

Yet.

I've only started one company (legit, papers, responsibility...). I've tried a few things here and there, nothing sticking. I spend too much time thinking about it, even when it's clear what to do. I've got this one "whale" of a client (whale is a relative term - it's the largest contract I've ever done by about 12X). I've never "gone-out-of-business", declared bankruptcy, or been sued.

Yet.

 

In the trades, most everyone I worked with was the best ever (just ask them!) - they knew all the CODE - THAT'S NOT CODE! I KNOW CODE! CODE! CODE! CODE! - and had done all the work, all the work, all the time, they were the best!

Big jobs and little jobs, in the shop or in the field, this trade or that - (most) every tradesman I ever met or worked with was the best [this trade] ever.

Me?

Longer I worked, the worse I got.

 

I'm not saying that as a "I'm so experienced and humble" - I'm serious. The more I try to do, the worse I seem to get. I wish the DKE lasted longer 

 

There is a funny in this though - one of the little ones (she was 13 at the time) went to open a cabinet that I had made, and she kept pushing the (wooden) latch, long after resistance would suggest to anyone reasonable that it was time to stop (was I that retarded at 13? Yes.). Predictably, she broke it. I then "punished" her with making her make the replacement part. It was somewhat endearing to experience that from the "dad" side (even if I had to bite my tongue to keep from "what the xxxx is wrong with you!?! reaction that I wanted to have...). The cabinet is fixed, and she does not appear to have developed any caution. Gave me a funny "I'm getting older" story though.

 

Imposter? I am the imposter. It is better to be lucky than good - but I don't think that I am either.

[Frosty]

Oh MAN you got it BAD! One of my Father's favorite sayings was, "You have to respect it but you can't fear it." I used to do a lot of trail riding on my 1970, 175cc Kawasaki enduro.  and the most common words of advice new riders heard was, "Do NOT think about what might go wrong. Or it WILL."

STOP saying YET  about things that might go wrong, especially about failure. Saying things like I haven't failed YET is literally telling your brain to fail. That is NO JOKE! STOP IT!

The obverse side of the Dunning Kruger effect is something Plato said, "All I know is that I know nothing," Plato maybe and that's a paraphrase but the meaning is there. The more you learn, the more you realize you'll NEVER know it all. Even the things you "know" are almost always not the best way or description of a thing. Seriously, I've been beating HOT iron for close to 60 years as a hobbyist and reading everything I could find anywhere and the more I learn the more I realize I don't know. 

Anybody who says or worse THINKS they're the best or know it all, the lower they are on the ladder in reality. 

You WILL screw up, you WILL run into things you don't know and WILL have to crack a book, or ask for help, etc. etc. Welcome to adult reality, it'll be like this the rest of your life or until you stop caring. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

I think one of the sources of feeling like an imposter is lack of faith in your own knowledge and abilities, sort of the opposite of the overconfidence of the Dunning-Krueger Effect.  I ran into that at the start of my legal career.  When I graduated from law school I was in my early 40s and about 15 years behind in experience than my age contemporaries in the field.  I never got treated like a rookie because folk assumed that I was more experienced than I was because of my age.  However, I knew that I was green and as a result was cautious about my approach to some cases.  However, once I had done some trials and won some motions and appellate cases I realized that I was pretty good at this legal stuff.  I realized that the other, more experienced lawyers, weren't that much better, if at all than I was.  That helped my cofidence in myself.

So, when you compare yourself to others who are doing whatever it is you are doing how do you size up, on a dispassionate judging scale?  Very often, you will realize that you are as good as anyone.

It gets a bit harder when you are competing and comparing inside yourself and possibly setting unrealistic standards for yourself.  All I can suggest in that case is try to be realistic about your expectations.  Have you done this before?  Did it turn out OK?  If you make a mistake or break a component or a tool is it the end of the world?  And even if you really screw it up is it really that disasterous?  It is usually better to try and fail than not attempt it at all.  And we all fail from time to time.  As Frosty says, that is part of being an adult.  "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."

"“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.”  - Theodore Roosevelt

GNM

[Scott NC]

  Is this the same Merlincman that built Hamela Hammersen?  I meant to comment on it but as usual got side tracked.  I admire people who build there own machinery or tools to suit themselves.  I've made a lot of my own stuff and left a trail of broken failures and parts in my path.  I move on.  The only problem I worry about is running out of money breaking stuff....  what is it that they say about making Omelette's?

[Frosty]

I don't know about "they" but I say no fish! . . . Well I might go for a halibut omelet, halibut is good on/in anything. Maybe not ice cream or milk shakes but I have had orange, candied halibut that'd make a fine dessert.  

There's the other adage to consider too, "We learn from our mistakes." Look at mistakes and failures as learning events, it helps make accepting them easier. Oh failures still suck, sometimes big but it you can examine and evaluate them you're knowledge and experience base improves. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  Who mentioned fish?    I was going to post my families pickled carp recipie in Vulcan Grill, but my sister said it almost killed my uncle because he did it wrong.

[Frosty]

See the previous post Scott.  

I see your uncle's reaction is about what mine would be to a pickled carp omelet. I'm getting goose bumps and a fluttery stomach at the thought! I worked a few times with a Fairbanks driller who decided to try fried salmon eggs. They were fresh out of a spawning female, not a bait jar, it didn't make a difference I don't think. They didn't smell too bad frying but the look on his face when he put a forkful in his mouth spoke louder than words.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

"One man's bait is another man's sushi!"  

[Frosty]

Fried sushi . . Why not?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

When I was a kid, we would catch puffer fish (blow fish) and skin them like a catfish then clean them like any other fish prior to frying them. They were delicious. Years later, I found out that the organs and skin were deadly poisonous. Probably by dumb luck is the only reason we are still around to talk about them.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/16/578252930/fugu-freakout-dont-eat-the-blowfish-japanese-officials-warn

[Frosty]

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

  He just made it wrong.  Spent a few days in the hospital.  I personally made it and it tasted no different than herring.  It would probably be safer with white, firm fish.

[Frosty]

From what I heard, a few days in the hospital means he was lucky! I'll stay with less exotic fish, cod, halibut, catfish, trout, etc. 

Frosty The Lucky.