Anvil purchase and repair.

[MrQQish]

Hi Guys, 

New to the forum but have seen a lot of great advice on here in regards to anvil identification and appraisal as to quality. Im a novice smith (hardly can call myself that really) and its really showing as i want to buy my first anvil (see attached... im hoping to get more photos and i am goingto see it in person soon). Up until this point i have been using just a peice of rail and i think its time to uprgade as it is chipped and rutted as anything else. If it is allowed I would like to put a few questions out there. 

1. Would anyone be able to identify the anvil? It has T7 marked on it any other identifying features are missing or rusted out. It has an approximate weight of 150 - 200kg (300 - 400#). 

2. The heel of the anvil is chipped as you can kind of glean from the image... the seller think that it was previsouly repaired but had broken out as there is evidence of weld. The horn, cutting face and working face are all very worn it has definitely seen some use but in my inexperieced opinion needs some love. Is there any rule of thumb to determine whether the working face is it too beaten up and needs repairing or from the looks of it does it seeem workable as is? 

3. im definitely going to have to repair the heel and have been recommended something similar to the Gunther Method (heat up and fill with good welding rod and grind back). Is this the route that you all would recommend? 

3. how much would you all be willing to pay for such an anvil in this condition and this size?

As far as im concerned the seller is asking a more than fair price for an anvil that that im reasonably happy to pay. The thing i want to avoid at this point is buying something that doesnt suit my purposes or is going to take more money than expected to fix up or maintain in the long run. I will be hopefully getting more picture and measurements soon... Thanks in advance!

 

3. 

 

[JHCC]

No idea about the pricing of anvils in Australia these days, so nothing to offer there. However, if the metal is sound around the hardy hole, you can probably get away with saving yourself some money and not repairing it at all. It's hard to tell from this angle, but there may be enough metal around the pritchell hole to grip a hold-down, and you can use a bolster plate to punch over the hardy hole. However, you can still use the time and expense of doing a Gunther/Schuler method repair in your haggling, if you like.

What concerns me more is that there appears to be a little bit of mushrooming on the edge of the anvil face. That could be an indication of the face being improperly hardened or having lost its heat treatment in a fire. Testing for ring and rebound is going to be critical on this one.

[ThomasPowers]

The ball bearing test is mandatory!  Chipping out where a previous weld has been done indicates that they didn't do a proper preheat/slow cool and so has HAZ  cracking or brittleness and you can expect more with use.

You know that asking if this anvil would suit your purpose would be a lot better if you would tell us what those purposes are!  Otherwise it's like asking if a specific used car would suit your purposes without telling if you need to fit 12 people in it; or do lots of high speed driving; or go off road with it.

In general any signs of repair drops the value of an anvil substantially to me as I can't be sure the repairs were done correctly and as mentioned; a bad repair will do more damage than there was originally!

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you Mr. . . Uh, do we call you Q or Quish or just make something up? Your call. 

Thomas's point about not knowing what's going to suit you is as true as it gets. However, I note in your second sentence you hardly feel qualified to call yourself a novice. Not to be mean but you don't know enough to know if you qualify as a novice or not. Same goes for knowing what you need/want in an anvil, set of tongs, hammers, swages, fullers, spring tools, etc. etc. any of them. 

Yes, go put eyeballs and hands on it! Take a 12mm. bearing ball to do the rebound test and a small ball pien hammer like the one in the pic to do a ring test. If you don't know the rebound test is dropping the bearing ball on the face and estimating how far back it bounces. Re-bounds. Hopefully the face is smooth enough you get a straight bounce. . . Take several bearing balls, 12mm work just fine and you can carry several in your pocket with out listing. Bigger is NOT better but you can go too small. You might need to wire brush the face to remove paint, loose rust, dirt, bird droppings, etc. you want clean steel for the test anything between ball and face will damp the rebound. Test in a pattern over the whole face. Be aware rebound will fall off as you move away from the sweet spot over the center of the anvil, this is normal. If you're not good at judging this kind of thing do it in front of a ruler from the 100mm mark. Don't need do follow the more is better crowd and drop it from a meter. Yes? 

Listening is important too, it should make a clear ping when it bounces, maybe not loud but it's a distinct sound. If it suddenly says thwack, thud, click, etc. you've discovered a dead spot. This is B A D. Mark it with a piece of chalk. You DID bring a piece of soapstone or chalk, YES?

The ring test CAN be used to determine rebound but takes experience as there is no set scale to judge with. What this does way better than a bearing ball is find the, location, extent and shape dead spots. Just give the anvil light taps and listen to the sound, just hold the hammer lightly between your fingers, you aren't beating something. Some anvils do NOT ring at all, Fisher being one of the best which thunks. Not thud, not thwack, a clear clean metallic thunk. Anyway, tap a pattern over the entire face and mark any dead spots. 

I'd ignore the heal, it looks from here like someone was hitting it like it owed them money it actually looks bend slightly. You can always repair it later if you find the need. You can work around it easily enough, as already mentioned a bolster plate over the hardy, handles punching through the pritchel hole. There are ways to hold stock other than a hold fast, motor cycle chain draped over the anvil is a popular work around. 

As to the step's condition. Personally I YELL at anyone who even looks like they're going to do any chiseling over the step on one of MY anvils. I have a sacrificial chisel plate saddle for that. I have better uses for that really handy 90* fuller, say for upsetting or truing up square sections, etc. I don't use the horn much anymore but a clean smooth one is nice. Not necessary but nice. If it has a bunch of dents and chisel marks it's a valuable bargaining chip as are ANY dings, cuts, REPAIRS, etc.

No way I can say what that one's worth from the opposite side of the planet. Jut do NOT think you HAVE to have that one, they may be rare but there are others out there and they'll start showing up like crazy as soon as you buy your first. "It's an interesting natural phenomenon." Yeah yeah, I know that isn't an Australian movie but it fit. The ONLY thing rushing into deals, projects, learning, etc. is guaranteed to do is make your mistakes permanent more quickly. Ask me sometime you have the time to chat. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

I can't add much except to agree with JHCC, Thomas & Frosty. It looks pretty good and usable if it passes the ring & rebound tests. In my area it would go for about $1000 U.S.

Have you seen this yet? A great bunch of folks there and who knows someone may be close enough to you to have an experienced eye take a look at that anvil.

OZ roll call - Everything Else - I Forge Iron

[MrQQish]

What an awesome reception! Thanks guys for all the advice I must admit now looking back on it my OP could have been more succinct. I am a hobbyist smith in my spare time making blades (knives and swords), brackets and hooks for around the house and i occasionally do commisions mainly for garden art and ornaments. I have had a little less than 1000 hours behind the forge so i dont know how this converts into experience. However, this anvil will be big enough if not to big for some of the things that i do but im assuming that that wouldnt hurt and optimally i would like an anvil that gives me "options". I would have personally "liked" an anvil with a flatter face and neater edges buti may or may not be getting to attached to the look of the anvil (im a bit of a perfectionist) and i know that the functionality of these is debatable.  

Thanks so much for explain the ring and rebound tests, i think from another post i saw on this forum 80 - 85% return height was optimal???... I will be definitely turning up with some ball bearings and gypsum chalk, taking alot of measurments and pictures and possibly even recording the ring sound. I have a retired blacksmith friend that i will try to drag along with me but it may not be possible. Interesting you mention the mushrooming on the edge could indicate a mistempter or too soft a working face... is this a deal breaker though? particularly since a repair is destined in its future if it is too soft would the Gunther method to reface the anvil be at all an option?  

This isnt the be all and end all of anvils I hope but seeing one if this size has got me quite enthusiatic ahah. In my experience with other hobbies i definitely understand the perils of "too much, too fast" and i would like to avoid this as too many times has overcommiting killed my enthusiasm especially if they end up all croppping up after my first purchase. At this stage the asking price is 750 usd which looks like a decent ask but dud or not it feel like this anvil will last me out. A major plus is that I will be able to pick up the anvil myself meaning no extra in shipping.  Maybe I am overthinking it as im am not a professional blacksmith and really any chunk of steel would probably work. 

MrQ (Q or Quish)

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Mr Quish,

Welcome from the Left Coast of North America, just across the water from a place called Vancouver (you may have heard about it) LOL.

Sometimes a Bird in the hand is worth 2 or 3 in the Bush!! The advantage of a heavier Anvil is the return from the bottom when you strike something Hot (Yes, it works 2 ways). A Flat face can be any piece of scrap Plate, A not flat face works better for making something flat (yes the metal springs down and back). It is no problem the touch the edges and make them different Radius. A sharp edge is the hardest to work with, it leaves notches you can't get out and they start cracks. The best Anvil is the one you have, not the one you wish for!!

If you run into Glenn Moon, he lives near Braidwood, NSW. He stayed with us for a bit, 2017. Say hello from Canada.

Good Luck on your choice. Don't be shy.

Neil

[ThomasPowers]

If you work your metal HOT then softness is less of an issue and some softer faces have been work hardened over the years---why you need to test and need a meter stick.  Knife alloys are often hard under the hammer and so can cause issues with a softer anvil face. (I once had to use a cast iron ASO where the anvil face would dent more underneath the coil spring I was forging than the spring wood!)

Yes the Gunter/Schuler method can be used to put a harder face on; but it takes a lot of time and skill and materials.

Smiths tend to suffer a lot from "Anvil Envy" and go as large as they can; although many famous smiths did their career using 165# anvils.  I used to suffer this until I got a couple of 400#+ anvils; though a friend has a 750# West that I would love to add to my harem!  (My wife says the proper term for a bunch of anvils is "a harem of anvils".)

[MrQQish]

Definitley alot to think about and im more keen than ever to actually see it in person now. I think alot of my problem is impatience and im sure if the seller gets even a whiff of enthusiasm all haggling goes out the windows ahah. Thanks for all the advice and new terms i will keep posting progress as i try and start my harem of anvils

 

[Timber]

Nice anvil. If it is 300+, I would have no problem buying it and doing a full Gunther restoration on it that would last forever. 
 

 I’d offer him $500 and be fully prepared to walk away from it. There’s always more anvils out there.