Blower leaks oil

[Reading Creek Forger]

I have a Champion Forge and Blower hand crank blower, model #1.  I resumed using it a couple of days ago and noticed oil leaking from a machined hole in the gear box body on the handle side a few inches below the handle.  I had never seen it leak before and there was no evidence of a prior oil leak when I bought if from the previous owner.  Looking at the hold it appears to be a smaller hole (less than 1/8 inch diameter in the middle of a large hole (approx. 7/16 of an inch diameter)  I do not see any threads on either the smaller or the large hole and I can see what appears to be a shaft rotating inside the smaller hole when I turn the hand crank so it may be one of the gear shafts I see rotating.  I bought a rubber plug at the local hardware store but i would like to know what is supposed to be in the hold, maybe a screw, maybe some type brass or bronze plug.  Can anyone provide information on the hole or what should be inside it.  Clearly it should not be leaking oil.  the blower is not over filled and the hole is lower in elevation than the crank handle.

 

[ChiefLittleBair]

The hole you see in the shaft is probably just whats known as a "center". It is for the tailstock on a lathe or OD grinder to support the shaft when it was being machined. You are probably leaking oil from around the shaft, not out of that hole as that hole should be rather shallow. Try using heavy gear oil.

 

I just keep a 5 gallon bucket of oil under my blower to catch what leaks, doubles as an oil quench bucket

[Frazer]

I keep a bucket under mine to collect the oil that drips out of the bushing (I assume its an oilite bushing or sintered bronze or something along those lines, but I've never taken the gearbox apart). Did you recently switch oils to something a little thinner? I've noticed the gear oil I use now leaks less than the ATF I used to use.

They are supposed to leak so I wouldn't try to seal it up.

ChiefLittleBair types faster.

[ThomasPowers]

Some of these blowers are not engineered to hold oil. You oiled them at the start of work and any excess will leak out, not a problem with a dirt floor!  It was the "Fancy" high grade blowers that actually supported an oil bath and the "fill to the drain plug". Part of this was due to earlier oils breaking down fairly fast, or drying out and getting gummy, so "new" oil on a regular basis was a good thing. (Many of us have had to clean out the hardened old oil out of old smithing equipment!)

Equipment that was designed for "flow through" oiling usually has a lot of oiling points instead of just one to fill the oil bath. Not having a picture I would have to guess that the "hole" was a place to oil that specific bearing.

[Reading Creek Forger]

Thank you to all of you.  I am certain the oil is coming out of that hole as the blower exterior was dry before a couple of days ago (I had not used it in about three years) with no sign of a prior leak and now I can see it coming out that hole in drips.  Yes its a very shallow hole.  I have not changed nor added any oil since I acquired it over 4 years ago.  I will fill it with gear oil (I have used 90W, ATF and 30W non detergent in my other blowers) and see what happens.  I can't see that leaving the rubber plug in the hole (once its trimmed to fit better) would hurt anything so long as I am using more modern/stable oil in it.  No complaints considering its likely over 100 years old.  Thanks again.  We have blacksmith class at the local museum on Saturday and will look for the same type of blower to compare what they have in the hole if anything.

 

 

[Frazer]

Do you have a picture of said hole by chance?

[ThomasPowers]

It's your "fill" comment that worries me as most of my blowers, been using them for 40 years now, I don't fill, I just put in a few drops before a session.  I decided I don't like the heavily geared blowers and so sold on the ones that had an oil bath in them.

Can we have a picture of the blower so we can tell which kind of oiling it uses?   (I have seen folks seal the casing and fill the lower part of blowers not designed for that and noticed they seem to have more drag in use.)

[Charles R. Stevens]

For my oil cap style blower (it was broken and I replaced it with a water drain plug with a cup) I use chain saw bar oil. It sticks to the gears well. I fill the little cup, open the drain (installed upside down) and let the oil drop on to the gears. It still seeps out. 

[ThomasPowers]

I usually use the oil sold down here for swamp cooler motors; comes in a handy plastic bottle with a long tube for a spout.  My wife buys a new one each year as the old ones tend to mysteriously vanish into my shop after the season is over.  Of course with a dirt floor a drip of two isn't very noticeable.   More than that and it's being over oiled!

[ChiefLittleBair]

I stick the nozzle in the oiler and give it about a one second squeeze while cranking the blower. It slowly seeps out depending on how often I run it and how warm it is in the shop. Once I quit seeing oil seeping out, I give it another squeeze. Maybe once a month or so. Just enough to keep the gear teeth lubricated. Kinda like my 94 ranger, leaking is a good sign because it means it has fluid. No oil on the ground means she doesn't have any oil lol

[Charles R. Stevens]

Na, that little oil cap is designed just to be filled up. It only takes a few drops. 
 

[ChiefLittleBair]

There's no wick under the cup like there would be on a bearing surface if it was on a bushing, and the through hole isn't much smaller than the cup itself. Its more like a pipe nipple with a cap, not the usual oil cup like my cannedy-otto blower has. The oil falls through it as fast as you can pour it in. Yes, normal oil cup would only take a few drops to fill, but I'd literally have to fill the entire housing to get the cup to fill up.... which is why I just stick the nozzle in and give it a quick squeeze (giggidy) while spinning the gears 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Charles R. Stevens]

Got ya, I use an old school oil can and it takes one squirt.

[ThomasPowers]

Ever see the oilers they used to use for large machinery like locomotives?  They would hold at least a gallon and had a pour spout. 

I once read a book from 1911-ish where the protagonists were designing a plane and one of the designated people needed for flying it was for the "oiler" to keep the engine lubed in flight...They ended up selling it to the US Navy for the outrageously high sum of US$10K!

[Yanni Rockitz]

Okay, so this seems as apt a place as any to ask -- which type of oiler is this on a Champion 400? Just one of those caps? I am about to do a resto on this old gal, which I got from a nice fella here in IFI a couple years ago -- just disassemble, clean 'er up, de-rust, paint the outer surfaces, lube, reassemble and a new wooden handle. As I gather it, they're meant to just take a small squirt of oil at the start of a session and it's normal for the oil seep out over time. So -- no need to worry about gasketing the gearbox on reassembly? Anyone do that? What about the airbox where the fan rotates on the front? Looks like this old 400 has some kind of whitish gaskety stuff (sealant?) along the seams... (Mr. Gasket?) Airtight seems like a good goal, but I want it correct -- whatever that is. What's the best oil -- a modern gear oil? I thought I'd heard a thinner oil...? I'd like to return it to original as much as possible -- anyone know the original color of one of these? Black? Maybe some kind of teal green...? 

[George N. M.]

Yanni, the gearbox should not leak since it is solid.  The ones that are split like the blower housing, e.g. the Canedy-Otto models, are the leakers at the seam.  Also, the C-O ones are an oil bath system where there is a pool of oil sitting inside (until it all leaks out).  The solid gearbox ones, like what you have, usually just take a squirt of oil, as you say.  

I think just about any oil will work, from 3 In One household oil, automatic transmission fluid, motor oil (although heavier weights could get sticky is your shop is cold), or dedicated machine oil.

I have always liked painting things like this, if I don't know the original color, dark red with the lettering picked out in black.  It looks pretty handsome, IMO.

I have found that working on gearboxes like this to be trickier than the split ones because you can only access things from the top.  A little like building a ship in a bottle.

I wouldn't worry about any air leakage around the edge of the blower housing.  I have never noticed any air leaks once a housing is closed up.  Even then any air leak would be too minor to worry about.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

What George N.M. said. I use chainsaw bar oil with some STP or equivalent mixed in or 80 wt gear oil. But in cold weather thinner oil can be used.

I always recommend to not disassemble those, other than taking the fan housing off to clean out all the debris like mouse & mud dobber nests that accumulate in them from lack of use. Just pull the top gear cover and clean out the old hardened oil with solvent, check the gears for broken or very worn teeth. Those old blowers will take a set to the gears and it is very difficult to get them back in position once they are removed. I have seen more working blowers turned into scrap by taking them completely apart than I care to remember.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

If it is leaking a little oil, all is good. If it isn't leaking a bit of oil, it needs a 'Little Dab'l Do-Ya'. Adding oil is cheaper than trying to refabricate/machine an old style machine that was meant to be loose. I have seen some with grease, but, the grease doesn't become liquid enough to lubricate the small bits. It is splash lubricated from the motion of the paddle wheels called gears. Chainsaw Bar Oil works a treat. You can create your own soup, but keep it simple, they don't have ball or roller bearings, they use bushings. Yes, it probably IS 'Older than Dirt'. Treat it gently and give the old girl a drink, now and again.

Neil

[George N. M.]

I've posted this before but will again in case someone missed the first time and has a similar problem.  Last year I rebuilt a Canedy-Otto blower which seemed to work fine when opened up on the bench but when reassembled and put under load with the fan would slip somewhere internally.  This was making me crazy because I couldn't figure out the problem.  Some of the gears have a large gear wheel and a small gear wheel on a common axle.  This is how the gearing works.  The small gear engages and turns the large gear of the next axle.  It turned out that one of the small gears was just tight enough on the axle that it would engage and work properly on the bench when there was no resistance/load but when assembled it would slip on the axle and not transmit the motion to the next set of gears.  I fixed it by using a center punch to upset the metal so that it is now locked to the large gear on the common axle and the axle itself.  It has worked a treat since.

If the gears had been locked to the axle with a key or a set screw the problem either wouldn't have happened or had an easy fix but it seems they are just pressed on and held there by friction.  This may be unique to C-O blowers.

I don't know how common a problem this might be but there it is.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Yanni Rockitz]

Wow, thanks guys -- I'm glad I asked. I was about to take that blower 100% apart... Now, I'm thinking I will heed the collective wisdom and refrain from messing with the gears and bushings -- just take the covers off, clean 'er all out with solvent, clean and paint the exterior, new wood on the crank handle, reassemble, new oil -- call it a winner. I'll go with a thinner oil... My little smithy is way out back and only gets heated when I go out and warm it up, so it gets down to freezing in there frequently in the winter. Any votes from cold zone guys on the best gum-up-resistant light winter gear oil? Maybe just a 3-in-1...

I'm vacillating back and forth between the dark red with black lettering and the black with 'antique' gold lettering. They both look sharp... I've seen a couple in that old-timey green, which looks good too, but I've always been a black and red guy, so probably one of those combos...  

This is why I love this stuff -- it's my happy zone.

[Les L]

I use the chainsaw bar oil in my blowers. I don't get the cold weather you get up north, so I can't saw if it gets thick in cold weather, but I've seen shows where they were using chainsaws in below zero weather. Frosty should be able to give good advise on it's performance in cold weather., or if you need to add something to it.

[Yanni Rockitz]

Right? Same thought process here -- I use my chainsaws in cold weather, but they also heat up QUICK and run the chain at a gazillion RPM, so there's definitely some thermal assistance on that platform. I'm guessing an old hand crank blower that doesn't provide its own 'engine' heat may be a gooey mess with thicker oils. This gives me that wonderful opportunity that we all love -- EXPERIMENT TIME!  I'll put some bar oil in a glass jar and some 3-in-1 in another -- maybe some 90 wt gear oil in a third -- let 'em sit out there in the cold overnight -- see which one remains the most fluid the next day. It'll be 3F here tonight and 31F tomorrow, so conditions should be ideal. I bet Frosty has an opinion on the matter -- like, the dude's name is literally FROST...   Love that guy. He always has the best input. JLP probably knows too -- she uses hand crank blowers in cold weather...

George makes a good point about my blower not leaking out the bottom (unless grossly overfilled), so it doesn't technically fit into this "Blower leaks oil" thread -- but I do so enjoy hijacking other peoples' threads... Thanks for the feedback!

[Frosty]

Well O K A Y, so long as it's the manly man kind of love we're good. I can introduce you to a few guys though. 

My blower isn't an oil bath so super stiff oil isn't an issue. I use Oregon chainsaw bar oil with about 1/4C of Duralube/gal. My chainsaw bar doesn't heat up in hard use, I actually have to brush snow or frost off it and I haven't had to turn a bar over in years. it's an excellent way to lube a chainsaw and it's what I use in my blower and Little Giant power hammer. A few drops stick to everything and don't run off. 

Bear in mind I haven't run a chainsaw since the accident, I'm not particularly stable on my feet and I'm not in favor of running a chainsaw and stumbling around. I don't even know if Duralube is still available but I'm sure there are equivalent lubes on the market. STP isn't a popular oil additive here it can turn engine oil solid on a cold morning. Even with an engine heater, they don't typically warm the oil pan unless you're relying on a magnetic stick on engine heater. <shudder>

Frosty The Lucky.

[Yanni Rockitz]

LOL - Ahem -- Yeah -- * COUGH * -- How about that football game last night.    Nutt'n but us mountain men around here. One never knows, though -- that profile pic of yours is sportin' some righteous slippers with the blue Sears Action slacks. Lord only knows what goes on up in them woods. What's that critter in back -- one'a them wild woods cows?  ;-)

So, bar oil with Duralube in the mix, eh? You see? This is why we consult the Frozen One. Always some new idea... I've never used Duralube. Which one -- they make like sixteen different additives -- the Automatic Transmission Treatment? I've always been a fan of the synthetic bar oil from Stihl (gray jug, not orange), but even that seems to thicken a bit in winter. Does your mix get exposed to freezing temps? (Didn't know if the shop at Chez Frost stays somewhat heated...?) Up there in the Great White North, you may have to maintain some kind of minimum temps in the old man cave, one might think...?

[Stash]

Hey George- I had a similar problem with my C-O blower. The first large gear inside the box was spinning on the shaft. It had a pin that went into the shaft to keep the gear engaged, but the pin had puled out. I reset the pin in the shaft but it only worked for a little while before the pin pulled out again. I reset the pin again, and used a center punch to upset the bronze around the pin and locked it into place. Works fine now.

Steve