Meteoric wootz

[Heavy hammer]

Alright guys, I'm starting this thread because I hope to embark on the process of making wootz. However I always wanted a steel of meteoric origin. So I'm going to  be smelting iron from a campo del cielo meteorite and combining it with other materials in a crucible to hopefully achieve true woots from the stars. I'm going into this with the mindset I will have plenty of failures and setbacks and it may even be impossible. However I am beyond determined to make reproduced wootz and im excited to share that journey with you all. I will try and record every aspect of the processes in detail for all of you.

[ThomasPowers]

On the other hand: *all* iron on this planet comes from "extra terrestrial" sources; some has just been reprocessed more times from that origin than others.

As meteorite metal is already metal and not ore; how do you plan to smelt it? (Or reprocesses it to make it better to use...)

[Heavy hammer]

3 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

As meteorite metal is already metal and not ore; how do you plan to smelt it? (Or reprocesses it to make it better to use...)

Edit I miss read your comment: I plan on smelting the meteorites to reduce the phosphorus and nickel content. The metal composition is well know for this meteorite that's why I choose it. then i plan on lightly working them under hammer to consolidate them. I feel like that's the best process to ensure as little impurities as possible get to the crucible stage. 

[Frazer]

I think TP's point is you smelt ore, but you melt steel. Different processes different names. It helps people like me who get confused

Out of curiosity are you just getting started in blacksmithing/bladesmithing? If so, then it might be worthwhile to try to connect with local smiths before you go whacking on your meteorites. Normally I would recommend an ABANA or NWBA affiliate, but I don't see any results popping up. Maybe someone out your way can offer a suggestion.

If not then never mind. Well, I'd still recommend meeting up with local smiths, we're constantly learning from (and heckling) each other. Plus some guys might have tools/toys that could limit the number of iterations/setbacks you go through to get where you want to go.

[Heavy hammer]

35 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

how do you plan to smelt it?

Can't you crush the meteorites just like iron ore and smelt them in a furnace to produce bloomery iron?

10 minutes ago, Frazer said:

think TP's point is you smelt ore, but you melt steel. Different processes different names. It helps people like me who get confused

Out of curiosity are you

So wouldn't crushing the meteorite and melting it to create bloomery iron be smelting? Or do I have my terminology off? And I have been smiting for 7 years now and shoeing horses for 4(not that it counts or matter) I have a lot of time in conventional hands on smiting not so much the terminology so if I mis represented what process I will be using I apologize 

[ThomasPowers]

Getting rid of phosphorus is always a good thing---unless you are trying to use phosphorus as a hardening agent for an early iron age blade, ("The Celtic Sword", Radomir Pleiner)

Bloomery smelting removes oxygen from iron ore; if you already have iron then you are not using the primary effect of a bloomery furnace.  Are you thinking of using a lime based slag  and remove it as Calcium Phosphate?  I think a liquid metal process would be more effective than a bloomery process for that.

What method do you plan to use to get rid of the nickel?   Electrochemical etching?

I've seen meteoritic swarf offered for sale which might be a more cost effective way to get it for melting; though as you mentioned; knowing what fall it's from and the elemental content is a major plus. (I recall a Mughal Emperor that gave a "gift" meteorite to his swordsmiths and told them to use it in blades and they figured out that they could use a small amount of meteorite to a large amount of regular steel to get a usable alloy.)

Campo del Cielo has been used in blades but they generally wanted the Nickel content.

[Heavy hammer]

10 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Bloomery smelting removes oxygen from iron ore; if you already have iron then you are not using the primary effect of a bloomery furnace

So In trying to seperate the nickel from the iron you shouldn't smelt it? I plan on bloomery smelting the meteorite to seperate the iron from the nickel and other impurities phosphorus and a few others that are at the ppm level.. I have raw iron to then fuse with my other ingredients in a crucible to try and make wootz.  I was thinking bloomery process just to process the meteorites down to mainly just iron

[ThomasPowers]

I know of no reaction in a bloomery furnace that would remove nickel.  Pre-roasting the ore was used to help remove Sulfur and Phosphorus IIRC and of course the adding of lime to the smelt for the slag----it also increases the yield of iron as the Ca takes the place of some of the Fe in the slag.

I don't think a bloomery will do what you want it to do  especially in the amounts you plan to be using.  In our smelting runs we used pounds of ore and many 80# sacks of charcoal to get a 15# bloom.

BTW what's the Iridium content of the Campo del Cielo?

Perhaps you can find a Professor at a local University that can consult on how to achieve your refining goals?

BTW are you trying to emulate Terry Pratchett's smelt?  

[Stash]

The bloomery smelt regarding iron is a reduction process, removing  the oxygen  from an ore- Fe2O3 or Fe3O4 typically. It uses the combustion products CO and CO2 to scavenge the O2 from your ore , in this very simplified description. You are not reducing the ore to generate an iron bloom, you are melting an iron alloy that already exists, no matter how small you grind or powder your alloy. The result is generally not referred to as a bloom. You are hung up on a  term that does not apply in this case. We basically want to use correct terms for the various processes encountered on this forum to alleviate any confusion or misconceptions, hence the previous attempts at correction. 

Steve

[George N. M.]

Generally, it is much more difficult to remove metallic elements such as Ni from iron than it is non-metallic elements such as S and P.  I believe it has to do with how things bond to the Fe atoms.  It can also involve such fun processes as running air or O2 through the molten metal.  Fairly difficult on a non-industrial scale.

Good luck though.  It will be very cool if you pull this off.  We love photos and videos.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[ThomasPowers]

Finally we *want* you to succeed at this; we're all for such things; but the better your knowledge base the more likely you can succeed before blowing your budget.

IIRC Jim Hrisoulas mentions working with Meteorite in one of his books, (and probably more in Book 4 if it gets finished and published, nudge nudge!)

[Heavy hammer]

55 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

BTW what's the Iridium content of the Campo del Cielo?

3.6 ppm Ir. And dont mind my ignorance, but wouldn't the low melting temperature of nickel and high temperature of iron be what seperates it in the bloomery? 

44 minutes ago, Stash said:

The result is generally not referred to as a bloom

Okay if the result isn't a bloom, would the process still reduce it to a more pure form of the iron alloy to begin with? 

[SLAG]

Mr. H.H.,

What a fascinating subject!

I did a little "research" into this subject and pulled up numerous (pertinent?) references.

For example,

try,

Nickel Separation from Iron : chemistry (reddit.com)

Also,

United patent number U.S. 4042474A.

There are many other references concerning this subject,

For example try, the results in.

separating nickel from iron at DuckDuckGo

Cheers,

SLAG.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Since a bloomery doesn't melt stuff, except for silicates in the slag; how is that supposed to work?

The smelting temp for iron oxide is around 2282 degF, the melting temp for Ni is 2651 degF and the melting temp for iron is 2800 degF.  So the smelting temp is almost 400 degF below the melting point of Ni, while the difference in melting between Ni and Fe is 150 degF.

You may notice that the melting temps for zinc and copper vary by over 1000 degF yet brass can be melted and poured without separation. (The separation occurs with the vaporization of the zinc!    Vaporization of both Iron and steel is close to 5000 degF and way out of the temperature range for a bloomery.)

Can you share with us where you got the idea that the bloomery would separate Ni from Fe?

[Heavy hammer]

11 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Can you share with us where you got the idea that the bloomery would separate Ni from Fe?

I miss understood the separation between the metals and the corresponding temperature but you cleared it up! I'm currently researching the easiest way to remove them and I found a way to do so that will remove cobalt as well. Another impurity present in the Campo del Cielo meteorite.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Excellent; will it deal with  iridium as well?

[Heavy hammer]

I don't think so unfortunately I need to get in contact with a professor  of metallurgy  I think and pick  their brain about the best course of action for to tackle it. But I'm determined if it's possible to make it happen haha

[Buzzkill]

I have virtually no experience in this area, so forgive my question if the answer is obvious to you guys. 

If you get meteoric iron and then go through all the time and trouble to remove all the elements which make it rare/unique in the first place then what is the benefit of using it as an iron source?  Why not just start with some ore which has the elemental content close to your desired product?  I get the cool factor, but to me it kind of ceases to be cool if you change it so much that it's no longer recognizable as meteoric.

 

[Steve Sells]

not to mention a very expensive experiment; the cost of Campo is in dollars per OZ

[ThomasPowers]

Meteoritic iron is really very poor stuff; lots of crud in it including lots of stuff that makes for bad blades. Think of it like getting a barrel of crude oil from Spindletop and wanting to use it in your Formula 1 Racecar.  You would need to do a lot of refining to make it into something that helps your Formula 1 Car race.  But the bragging rights of having some gas made from the first oilwell in the USA...

In reality the Widmanstatten patterns is pretty much the only way you could tell a piece was meteoritic without an elemental assay. Unfortunately they get destroyed as soon as you heat a piece up to forging temps.

So Meteorite in a blade is all about the hype; in Indonesia they were happy to go to Krupp nickle steels for their krises.

And as previously mentioned all iron is extra terrestrial; made in red super giants and distributed by supernovas. (Unless they have made some in a nuclear accelerator here on earth...)

[Goods]

What percent of nickel and cobalt are we talking about? Could make a pretty tough steel in the right ranges…

 

[George N. M.]

Thomas, I agree that meteoric iron is a pretty poor source of metal for blades but some people really want the bragging rights to say they have a "star" blade.  I do have a slight historic nit to pick though.  The Spindletop Oil Field came in in 1901 near Beaumont, TX.  However, the first oil boom in the USA was in Pennsylvania in the 1860s.

BTW, you analogy comparing making a blade from meteoric iron and F1 fuel from crude oil was very apt.  It can be done but the question is whether it is worth it.

GNM

[Steve Sells]

I have made more than a few blades from various meteorites but that is not the way to go about it

[SLAG]

Mr. George N. M.,

One good pick deserves another.

The first oil wells were drilled in Oil springs Ontario, Canada, 1858. And more substantial wells were drilled, nearby, in Petrolia, Ontario circa 1865.

The first oil well was completed in 1859 at Titusville, north-west Pa. (by Edwin Drake).

The very first modern well was in Poland in 1854.

Of course, the Chinese drilled the first known oil well in 374 A.D.

Regards to all,

and apologies to Mr. George N.M.

SLAG.

[George N. M.]

I have been through Petrolia many years ago and assumed that there had been some connection with petroleum production in the Michigan Basin but did not realize that it was that early.  I also did not know that Canadian oil production predated Drake's discovery in PA.

Locally, the 1st oil well in Wyoming was drilled in 1884 near Lander.  The field is still in production today. 

All these early wells were drilled with cable tools which used a cable to lift and drop a weight with a sharp bit in the hole.  Modern rotary drilling did not start until the early 20th century.  My father worked on the first rotary rig in Montana in the early 1920s.

One of the things I enjoy about IFI is the historic nit picking.

Slightly creepy factoid:  Nits are lice eggs (very small) and removing them from someone's hair is "picking nits."  It has nothing to do with knitting as a fiber craft.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."