Heavy hammer Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Hey guys! Im about to embark on the long journey to make my own steel. I want to do crucible steel and im having trouble finding a crucible for sale with a cap included that can fit 2 and a half pounds of material. I've been doing research for a few days now and I cannot seem to find a silicone carbide or alumina-mullite crucible that would work for this. Most graphite clay crucibles are rated to only 26 or 2700 degrees and iron won't melt till 2800 and the foundry needs to be around 3000 degrees before the steel will for from the ore. So can yall please send me some links to any crucible that meets these requirements. Thank you so much in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Welcome to IFI! Probably the best source for this kind of information is your workshop instructor, who will have knowledge of what's locally available in your area (which you really should include in your profile settings, as this forum has a worldwide membership). They may also be able to help you get materials from local suppliers that don't usually deal in small quantities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Mr. H. Hammer, There is an ocean of difference between 'siliconE carbide" and 'silicon carbide". The former does not exist. i suspect that there is a typographic error here. Hopefully, it is not a lack of knowledge and experience.. Foundry work is inherently dangerous. Experienced workmen have been killed doing same. SLAG, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 In fairness, SLAG, Heavy hammer is not talking about casting, but about making crucible steel. The former is indeed quite dangerous (transporting and pouring liquid metal and all that), but I believe that making crucible steel does not involve moving the crucible while it's hot, let alone pouring out its contents while they are liquid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 John, crucible steel used to be teemed, eg: "Men teeming crucible steel at Jessops' Brightside Steel Works, Sheffield. c. 1911." The problem with leaving it in the crucible is removing the "puck" without breaking the crucible. There used to be a fellow on Sword Forum International that was making his own steel alloys using a thermite process; but as I recall he had to stop when even with using expensive PPE he was told he was going blind...(a couple of decades ago.) And of course Dr Feuerbach's Thesis on "Crucible Steel in Central Asia" had quite a bit of information on the crucibles that were made and used over 1000 years ago. One suggestion is to call the company making the crucibles and asking what they had for higher temps. You might also check and see if Verhoeven/Pendray have mentioned what crucibles they were using for their Wootz experiments. I know that Huntsman had a major issue with getting crucibles he could melt steel in. (BTW Have you read "Steel making before Bessemer, vol 2 Crucible Steel" Kenneth C. Barraclough? You might try to ILL it just as background info.) And as mentioned; this website on the WORLD WIDE WEB has folks from over 100 different countries participating on it's forums; unless you are willing to pay for international shipping and money conversions and Customs Charges; it's a good idea to list at least the country you are in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 JHCC, Thanks. I was mistaken. Ouch. Time for a stiff cup of coffee. SLAG. But does 'siliconE' figure, anywhere in this discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Thomas, you are quite right (as usual). The OED gives a citation (inter alia) from an 1889 issue of the Quarterly Review: "Blister steel is..poured or ‘teemed’ into suitable ingot moulds." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Ouch; blister steel isn't teemed unless it is melted into crucible steel. Handled in depth in "Steel Making Before Bessemer, vol I Blister Steel". So is that quote missing "is melted and"? Now blister steel was often stacked and forge welded making shear steel and each step could be repeated making "Double Blistered, Double Shear Steel". We may have lots more alloys today; but they had much greater variation in the "starter" metal back then! ("Mechanick Exercises", Moxon; has a listing of the various sources for real Wrought Iron and what they were good for back in 1700.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Well, I've hunted down an online archive of The Quarterly Review, in which I find the following unabridged passage (from The Life of Sir William Siemens, F.R.S., D.C.L., LL.D. By William Pole, F.R.S. London, 1888): Quote The process of fusion for the purpose of obtaining homogeneity was not resorted to in England until about the middle of the last century. Its inventor, Benjamin Huntsman, perfected the method so thoroughly as to leave very little scope for improvement in the quality of the steel thus produced. The story of his life, and the dastardly manner in which he was robbed of his invention, has been so well told by Dr. Smiles [in Industrial Biography, chap. vi] that we need not repeat it here. The operation is performed in crucibles of various sizes, the fires for which are ranged in rows in a building termed the 'steel melting house.' The fires are contained in rectangular chambers, each sufficiently large to hold two crucibles, and their ash-pits all communicate with a single subterranean culvert or 'cave' through which the attendant can watch the fires. The flues from each fire lead into a common stack. The crucibles may each, according to size, contain a charge of from 28 to 50 lbs. of blister steel. Omitting all note of the technical details involved in the melting process, the result is a homogeneous material material, which is poured or 'teemed' into suitable ingot moulds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Thanks; they got the "melting/fusion nailed down in the longer excerpt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 The process of making blister steel into shear steel is mentioned elsewhere in the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy hammer Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 On 1/24/2022 at 8:58 AM, JHCC said: In fairness, SLAG, Heavy hammer is not talking about casting, but about making crucible steel. The former is indeed quite dangerous (transporting and pouring liquid metal and all that), but I believe that making crucible steel does not involve moving the crucible while it's hot, let alone pouring out its contents while they are liquid. Thank you this is what I'm talking about. Through al pendrays process the crucible will be left to cool overnight with the furnace. No transportation of molten metal will occur. On 1/24/2022 at 8:46 AM, JHCC said: Welcome to IFI! Probably the best source for this kind of information is your workshop instructor, who will have knowledge of what's locally available in your area (which you really should include in your profile settings, as this forum has a worldwide membership). They may also be able to help you get materials from local suppliers that don't usually deal in small quantities. I will add my location! I'm in the USA west coast. I will put it on my profile. I have all the material I need besides the crucible. I'm just trying to make sure I'm not going to over carbonize my steel in a graphite clay crucible. That's why I mentioned the other 2 types above. I read that molten steel can leach carbon from graphite crucibles. Every video or article I've read I can't find the material al used for his crucible just the material he used to seal it. I did just order Dr verhoevens book on their study. On 1/24/2022 at 9:27 AM, ThomasPowers said: John, crucible steel used to be teemed, eg: "Men teeming crucible steel at Jessops' Brightside Steel Works, Sheffield. c. 1911." The problem with leaving it in the crucible is removing the "puck" without breaking the crucible. There used to be a fellow on Sword Forum International that was making his own steel alloys using a thermite process; but as I recall he had to stop when even with using expensive PPE he was told he was going blind...(a couple of decades ago.) And of course Dr Feuerbach's Thesis on "Crucible Steel in Central Asia" had quite a bit of information on the crucibles that were made and used over 1000 years ago. One suggestion is to call the company making the crucibles and asking what they had for higher temps. You might also check and see if Verhoeven/Pendray have mentioned what crucibles they were using for their Wootz experiments. I know that Huntsman had a major issue with getting crucibles he could melt steel in. (BTW Have you read "Steel making before Bessemer, vol 2 Crucible Steel" Kenneth C. Barraclough? You might try to ILL it just as background info.) And as mentioned; this website on the WORLD WIDE WEB has folks from over 100 different countries participating on it's forums; unless you are willing to pay for international shipping and money conversions and Customs Charges; it's a good idea to list at least the country you are in! I don't mind if I have to break up the crucible at all most I have seen run around 50$ for the size I need and although I'd like to avoid it its not a big issue. I believe (from what I've gathered of Al's work) if you have enough flux (crushed bottle glass) removing the cake once the crucible is cooled isn't an issue. However I asked about crucibles because I'm worried using a graphite crucible will cause the steel to stick to the crucible or worse leach carbon from the graphite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 May I suggest you peruse the following thread and perhaps contact Daniel C for some additional guidance? He hasn't been on here for several months, but if a PM goes to his email he might respond. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53084-first-crucible-steel-run-and-forging/ Ric Furrer is also a member here who has experience making crucible steel. Additionally, Steve Sells responded to the question of appropriate crucible with this: A6 graphite crucible In this thread: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/68384-crucible-steel-questions/#comment-740921 Hope that helps. Good luck, be safe, and share your results with us when you succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy hammer Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 T 19 minutes ago, Buzzkill said: Hope that helps. Good luck, be safe, and share your results with us when you succeed. Thank you so much I will definitely share with you all. And I will read that thread immediately, I have contacted Daniel I hope to hear from him. And what is Rics user name I'd love to converse with him on my journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Ric's user name is his name - Ric Furrer. In case you weren't aware, his work was featured in the Nova program "Secrets of the Viking Sword" where he used mostly period correct methods to recreate an Ulfberht sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy hammer Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 Yes sir I loved the documentary I've wated it over and over again. It's what got me into making crucible steel then I found al pendrays work some years later and here we are haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 I was Ric's assistant the year he did "3 ways of making steel" at Quad State, I floated a plastic eyeball in the quench tank for that. He is a really nice guy; no burns or slashes from that incident! I sure did love being a SOFA member for about 14 years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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