Thoughts on small air hammers? (Anyang 15kg/33lb)

[Vinito]

Hi folks.

I am old but almost absolutely new to blacksmithing. Of course I've been internetting tons of info the past couple months or so, thus exposed to a bunch of the tech. That includes lots of time looking into various power hammers, whether they be Davinci, treadle, Clay Spencer, Ken's KZ / MZ hammers or self-contained air hammers. I can build stuff so was thinking I might go that way when the time comes and after I decide which one to go with (ie. start with).

Since I'm just starting, I'm already maxing my brain out at the forge just figuring out the basics, so I don't really need a power hammer of any kind at this point. My arm easily keeps up with the baby-step pace I can work at during a heat. But I am liking this stuff so I'll assume that one day I will certainly reach the point of wanting a power hammer.

Here's the wrinkle: I have a chance to get a halfway decent deal on a somewhat older (guessing 10-15 years old) Anyang C41-15 (33lb hammer). Wasn't looking, it just came up. It's not a steal, but this little hammer isn't exactly a budget-buster to begin with. Basically the one I'm looking at just a little more than half the cost of a current new one (so probably not much less than it cost when it was new honestly). The dickering hasn't begun yet, so there's that. But no matter, I'm wondering if there are some thoughts on this hammer you folks might have.

My own thoughts:

#1: I figure at this price I could probably sell it off and not lose a bunch if that was the ultimate fate. If I outgrow it and need/want to sell it off, it shouldn't be much of a loss, if any. That might be a big if, but you never know. I have no idea what size of things I'll want to forge in a couple years... of course.

#2: Since it's relatively small, it wouldn't require major infrastructure to run the thing. I'm guessing bolting to a 4" concrete pad probably would do halfway OK.

#3: since I'm new, it's something that could be useful enough to be worth having and helpful for cutting my teeth in this hobby. The size makes it a little less to bite off maybe?

I can think of cons, but I'd kinda rather not poison the well and see what you guys think about these "little" things first. I do like wielding the hammer, and for decades I've been a fan of various handwork in general, so I promise not to jump that ship and skip learning the fundamentals. This would just be considered yet another tooling option and not a hobble to my learning. After all, having a power hammer is one more skill inside this hobby that might be fun to learn in itself.

Anyways, any thoughts you feel like offering are appreciated. Thanks in advance

[Vinito]

By the way...

One thing I was wondering if anybody knows, is if the new 33lb hammers whip the old ones on power or control or anything like that. I can probably afford a new one if that's the case, though I probably wouldn't bother with that for a year or two maybe. This thing popping up for me now is what prompted me to consider one at all.

Just trying to weigh out getting a jump on learning some power hammering as opposed to kicking the can down the road. I'm kinda OK either way, but since I'm so green, I am either unaware of what I'd be missing or unaware of what I'm getting into and too ignorant to know either way. I guess this is a way of asking if you wish you had got something like this early on your path or are power hammers not that big a deal?

[George N. M.]

Vinito,  other things to consider are the cost and hassle of transporting the hammer, installing a suitable base, and whether you have a suitable compressor to supply an air hammer.

If it were me I think that I would buy it and park it for awhile until my production demanded a power hammer.  As you point out, it probably will not decrease in value.  Using a power hammer of any sort does require some different skills and techniques than hand hammering.  One does not replace the other, they are complementary skills and applications.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Bob Brandl]

I owned a 33# Anyang for a good while. They're good little hammers, but they are little. I always felt like it out worked a lot of 50# mechanicals I've used, but the dies were Way smaller on the Anyang. Not a big deal if you're starting out, but as you go along that may be a thing. If it were me, I'd look hard at a deal on a 50# Little Giant or something, but that's just me.

Have you got pictures of the hammer, especially the motor nameplate?

[bubba682]

Bob i got a 33 and i agree i wish the dies were bigger but other than than i'm happy with the performance i've got mine a few yrs now.

[Bob Brandl]

I liked mine a lot, too, but the dies just became a problem for the work I do. But it was a solid little hammer. Sold it to a knifemaker in VT about ten years ago and she's still using it.

[Latticino]

I've got a used '33 as well.  Mine sits on a raised plywood stacked base, no need for reinforced concrete slab or independent base.  Nice little hammer, good for my residential neighborhood.  Would love to have a larger one, but this is pretty convenient right now.  If at half price from new you should be able to use it essentially for free until you are ready for a larger one.  The US rep stands behind these units and will help with tuning and replacement parts if needed.  Dies are pretty small, so combination dies are pretty useless, but flat and drawing dies work well up to around 1.5" diameter stock.  All depends on what you plan on making.  Certainly won't replace a 300# Bradley, but can give a 50# mechanical a run for its money.  Self contained unit doesn't need a compressor.

[Bob Brandl]

Everything Latticino said!

[Vinito]

Here's the nameplate, in case that helps. Looks like maybe 2014 vintage? If so, it's not as old as I suspected.

If nothing else, maybe this nameplate can help determine if it's a clone or the real deal.

 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Vinito,

A Power Hammer won't make you a better Blacksmith, but it could make your junk pile larger. If you are fairly new and you have an opportunity and can afford to invest in yourself, buy it. It won't go rotten with sitting. They are a very useful Tool, Yes they are a Tool. They are a very safe Tool to learn on. The most dangerous part is when you are not holding your material straight and the temperature has cooled down, It can flip your material out of your Tongs quicker than you can brink.

On the realistic side, YOU need to learn how metal moves by hand, FIRST. When I am teaching, I give every student a small container of Play-Doh. Hot metal moves identical to Play-Doh, except Play-Doh you can hold in your hands to manipulate' I buy the Play-Doh from Wally/world for a dollar. There are a few good manuals/books that explain the subtleties, I would check with Randy McDaniels, A Blacksmithing Primer.

Good Luck. As is said "Walk slow", Enjoy the Journey, there is no Destination. Stay Safe and wear your PPE!!

I have my Hammer mounted an a 4'x8'x8" thick concrete slab, that I put 2 pieces of plastic pipe sideways in the form. I can move it around, anywhere, anytime. The plastic pipe holds the axles. Timbers also work great. You may have to put a leash on the Timbers, it may want to rattle out the door (LOL).

Neil

[Vinito]

I reached out to James at AFP and he said what's on the nameplate means it was made before 2008, so I'm guessing the date code probably means 2005.

I'm going to talk again to him briefly tomorrow for a couple details and make a decision to either get it or not this weekend. At the moment, I'm squarely on the middle of the fence whether I want to get it to play with and give it a good home now or just stick with my Armstrong hammer for a year or so.

Just for the tool porn angle, here's a non-flattering full length pic.

Is it just me missing something or does the ram appear to only have about 5" of travel with those tall dies taking up all the space in between? Seems odd. I'm suddenly suspect of my original enthusiasm. I guess I could whip up some shorter dies, but it's a head-scratcher.

[Vinito]

edit to add: I searched a little and found that on these older Anyangs, the ram actually pulls up into the head a fair bit so it has more stroke than just what's sticking out like in the picture. So yeah, it's not the newest whizzbang, but not a choked stroke either. Sooo... it is what okiedokie is I guess.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

You can't build it, with all the Engineering that has gone into it, for less. Consider it "An InVestment". A Powerful Investment!!

Neil

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I get an awful lot of work out of my 30 pound Star mechanical hammer. I have no doubt you would get the same out of a 33 pound Anyang.

[Vinito]

Well we negotiated what I think is a decent deal with the seller, so I guess I'm going to have a power hammer later this week. I tend not to count my chickens and it's not actually in my shop yet, but I did give him a deposit and we're going to coordinate a move on probably Thursday so I feel pretty confident that it will go fine. The seller seems like a solid upstanding feller. He had some spare parts which he handed me to take home today so I suppose that's probably a good sign.

One cool thing is included in the deal is a cool little coal forge as well. But the forge is the real deal, i.e. blower, ash dump, clinker breaker, hood. It's better than I was going to build, so I think that's very cool.

I'll post pictures once it's here.

Also... just wow! I never thought I'd run across a power hammer near me at all and didn't think I'd be worthy of one for quite a while anyway, but now I am kinda pinching myself at the prospect of having one so early on into my blacksmithing endeavor. Since my joints are all so old now, I'm thinking it's maybe not a bad idea to have this to use at this point in my life. So I'm almost doing a little happy dance... almost. Dancing is a little risky for me as well, but you get the idea anyway.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

Dancing;  You put your right foot in, you take your right foot out, you put your left foot in and shake it all about...............etc

Neil

[Frosty]

I'm glad you pulled the trigger on the hammer Vinito, it'd be awfully hard to come up short on it even if you can't use it. You'll get the hang of using it quickly enough and if it allows you to spend more time smooshing steel into submission it's goodness on toast.

Shame on you Neil! That was just TOO hokey, go straight to the pokey, do Not pass GO, do Not collect $200!

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Finding stuff can be weird.  I found 3 powerhammers  two blocks from where I work in a small University town, town of 10K people when in session.  Fellow had been collecting it to do smithing and after 25 years he never got around to doing it and his wife told him to sell it---to me!  (Along with the treasure hoard of other stuff in their storage building in town.  Sold off enough of it that the stuff I kept ended up being free.)

[setlab]

What do you guys thing a good asking price would be for an old style anyang 33lb hammer with the markets the way they are now? Have one in storage but being honest with myself it will probably be years before I even think about using it. 

[Vinito]

A good asking price is kind of a moving target, but I can tell you that when I chatted with James (the owner of Anyang USA) he suggested, for the older design, a reasonable range would be $2,000 to $3,750 - depending on condition and in his opinion. I dunno, but I would expect James to have a pretty solid take on market values since working that market on that machine is what puts food on his table. Probably pretty accurate.

For posterity, this post written Fall 2021.

[setlab]

That's a little surprisingly low I would think but who knows. Maybe I'm bias but a well built tire hammer doesn't sell for less than $3500 often. A self contained hammer > a tire hammer any day in my book. 

[Frosty]

10 hours ago, Vinito said:

is what puts food on his table.

Selling new machines puts food on his table. You wanna bet he sells used hammers for more  than he pays? Ask what he sells a similar hammer for but remember it will undoubtedly have been rebuilt and in top running condition maybe with a warranty. 

I'm not saying he' trying to put something over on you but it IS his perspective on buying a used hammer that size and age. He has to make margin or he'd be a memory and working for someone else.

Also don't confuse asking price for selling price, they're often a world apart, sometimes an unbridgeable gulf. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Latticino]

Pricing I've seen (and paid) for a used '33 started at $3,500.  In good usable condition I wouldn't be surprised to see one go for over $4K.  New they start at $7650, so regardless of what was originally paid for it a running unit at under 1/2 price is a bargain in my book.

[Vinito]

I would not be surprised to see an older 33 sell for more than $3750. But I personally thought that James' suggested range was not far off after I considered a few things.

1) he qualified that the range was dependent on condition. That can be anything from scored bores & backyard hack repairs to low hours and running good.

2) I couldn't find much actual documentation, but from what I could infer, the new price a couple decades ago was probably closer to $4K?, even including the necessary dealer markup. Sure some things do buck the typical and actually appreciate after you buy them, but I dunno whether that would apply here or not.

3) the new models have several upgrades over the old models, including more stroke, deeper throat, oiler design, die mount, slightly more hammer and overall mass, included base (I think), yada yada. Overall, I would guess that if the current model were sitting next to a newly made old design package on the same dealer's showroom floor, the new one might have a price tag around 20-25% higher than the lesser model. So it's not quite as easy as to just take the current model price tag and apply that to an older hammer since it's not apples to apples. The current market is a factor in selling anything, but a more appropriate comparison might be the current offerings from aliexpress which are clones of the old models, etc.

Anyways, you can always ask for a higher price. If you get no nibbles, then you can always lower it until the market responds. These days that's essentially free to try. Sometimes a seller can get a higher price than the market would normally deliver depending on the buyer's knowledge and motivation, so it's worth a shot. If it's been sitting for years, I would think that taking a month or more to sell it is probably not a big deal.

Getting the best price may not even be your high priority. I find in my old age that who the buyer is makes a huge difference in my selling price for things when I sell stuff. i.e. someone who is obviously buying something so they can just flip it for a profit is one thing and the other extreme would be an interested nephew who could benefit from a little help, to which I would just gift it. Everything in between is TBD

I was just relaying what James said because it seemed reasonable to me.

[setlab]

I hear ya, don't shoot the messenger haha. It's just pretty surprising to hear a low end of 2k. Maybe 2k is for one that's been threw a couple floods and outside rainstorms. 

Now that it's on my mind I'll have to take a look at my hammer and see how attached I am to it still. It has a pretty big cool factor even though I never use it lol.