Buzzkill Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 On 10/21/2021 at 7:28 AM, USANewbie said: When you brush a piece of steel fresh out of the forge it starts to oxidize and forms another layer of scale. So i am told anyway. While this is true it doesn't tell the whole story. If you don't clean the steel some of the scale will pop off when you hammer it, but not all of it. The portions that do not flake off tend to become thicker with subsequent heats and then as you hammer on the steel you are driving those oxidized portions down into your work piece. Once they are embedded below the working surface it becomes quite difficult to remove them. Brushing every time you remove the steel from the forge limits the thickness of the scale that is formed and therefore the depth that scale is pushed into the steel as you hammer. When you do clean your work later by something like a vinegar soak or wire wheel, the surface appears (and is) pitted where all those pieces of scale that you removed were driven down past the surface. At that point to get a smooth surface you'll have to grind/file to the depth of the deepest pit. You can also try forging some more after cleaning it up, but if you repeat the actions that created the problem you'll just wind up with a thinner and thinner blade. Another thing that can help after you are done getting the shape and thickness you want is to use planishing blows (rapid and lighter than forging strikes) at a lower temperature than forging to help smooth out the surface. Flatters can also be used, but again you want steel as close to scale free as you can get when doing these things - hence the lower temperature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 I don't brush the steel every time it comes out of the fire, but as it gets closer to it's finished form brushing becomes more and more important. The flat bristle brushes are called butcher block brushes and are worth the small investment. Making your own handle for it can be a fun project for you as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 JHCC, i'll try that when i get a quality flat bristle brush. Right now the only brush i have doesn't do much good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 Thanks Frazer and Buzzkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 The thing that gets me is why my bottle openers are so pitted. I didn't forge the handles yet they are pitted all over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 Here is a pic of my burner. The camera didn't pick up the image very well because its so bright and the colors blend together, but maybe you can still see it well enough. The flame is blue not white as it appears in the image. I could use some advice on tuning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 23, 2021 Author Share Posted October 23, 2021 As far as i can tell i have a neutral flame, if I'm reading it correctly. I plan on buying a forge. The one i have is ok but i want something someone else built because they probably put more thought into it than i have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Your burner is running rich but not terribly so. Your work is coming out so pitted is mainly because it's taking you a lot of heats as well as driving scale into the surface. You're just beginning and focusing on tools to substitute for stills you haven't been at it long enough to acquire. Everybody who is any good at the anvil had to start just like you. We burnt the work, we forged it too thin, broke off things we wanted there. We made mistakes and if we couldn't figure out what went wrong we opened books or asked people, I didn't have the internet and the only smiths I knew were farriers who didn't want to be bothered by a kid asking questions. I had books when I could find one. You have the internet and bunches of guys who LIKE helping people learn the craft. It's all a little knowledge and a LOT of practice. You're NOT going to produce quality products until you learn how. There are a lot of ways to deal with scale, it doesn't take a special brush, any steel wire brush works fine for removing fresh scale. A butcher block brush removes steel while it's removing the scale. Your work is heavily scale marked because it takes you longer to make a product. After a while a basic loop type bottle opener is two maybe three heats. An S hook, two. a Leaf hook three. When I started I took 4-5 heats to make a leaf hook, later when I was doing a lot of demos I could turn them out in about 7 minutes and 2 heats, the second one to turn the hook and finial scroll plus any final tweaking. However, since I don't spend much time at the anvil, I've reverted to taking 3-4 heats and maybe 15 minutes for a leaf coat hook. I still have all the knowledge, skills and tools but actual skill at the anvil is a perishable skill. You have to do it to keep good at it. That's as true as getting wet if you stand in the rain. You can NOT get good if you don't do it a LOT. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 23, 2021 Author Share Posted October 23, 2021 Thanks Frosty. Please tell me why you say its running rich. That way I'll know what to look for, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 It could be a trick of the light and background but it's more opaque and soft , the final flame envelope has feathers and whisps of yellow. I don't tune burners out of the forge or the environment it's going to be used. I couldn't tell you what any burner of mine looks like burning outside a forge. No, I take that back I still have my first successful T burner and I ran that one in different places, once melting about 200lbs of lead and that was open air. Perhaps Mike will speak up, I trust his read on flame more than mine. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 23, 2021 Author Share Posted October 23, 2021 Im going buy a commercially made forge, that way i know its built correctly. But till then i'll have to rely on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 A commercially made forge is built to the specifications of those selling the forge. Different forges are made to different jobs. Do you know which type forge is best for your type work? Built correctly depends on who you ask and what they think correctly is for the type work they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 23, 2021 Author Share Posted October 23, 2021 Glenn, I would like it to be close to the size i have now, but perhaps a little shorter and with two burners instead of one. Mine is 5 in x 7 in x 21". I don't think I need 21 inch long forge though, 16 inches might be enough. This size seems to work for me, I can forge a knife with it or tongs, or mostly whatever i need at the present moment. I found this forge and its very affordable. It costs $180. The outside measurements are 16.5 x 7.1 x 11.. I might try to get one with those measurements on the inside though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 I don't get why that forge has a door though. You cant close it while its operating. It would be useful for annealing steel i guess but aside from that i wouldn't know its purpose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 It's also unsealed ceramic wool refractory and WILL shed particles into your breathable air. Think mesotheleoma type lung problems. It will need to be rigidized and a flame face refractory applied. I wouldn't trust the company to rigidize it or their rigidizer. You don't have to close the door all the way. What I don't see is a rear door or pass through. How would you heat the middle of a long bar? Or seeing as you want to make blades how will you bring a blade to an even temp over it's whole length, you need to be able to draw the blade in and out under the front burner but if it hits the rear wall you end up with a less than evenly heated blade. Even heat through the whole blade is only important for heat treating, Hardening, tempering, normalizing, annealing, Yes? The burners appear to be commercially made buying one or two might be a good option. I'd pass on the forge though. Do they have other models? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goods Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 I’m not impressed with that one. Only 1” of insulation and no hard face. What’s your forge look like? Might be money ahead to upgrade the one you have. Glen sells everything (refractory wise) you need on this site in reasonable quantities and reasonable prices. (Honestly, it maybe better than the “hells forge” that I have. It kind of just landed in my shop and needs a lot of help, but I’m pretty much a solid fuel forge guy…) David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 Frosty, they have an oval shaped forge with open ends. Maybe i could buy some new insulating firebrick and burners and build a better forge than i have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 Goods, my forge is rectangular shaped with firebrick insulation that I salvaged from an old pottery kiln. I wouldn't mind buying fire brick that i can replace later if need be, then buy a couple burners and just build a new forge. I'm not sure where i would get the size firebrick im using now, so buying new would be helpful. I could go with the wool and rigidizer i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 Upon further investigation i noticed that firebricks come in standard sizes and they are the same size i already have. I could just redesign my forge to hold two burners instead of one, and i could buy the burners instead of making them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 try to avoid placing the burners directly on the top like that, it creates a chimney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 A brick pile forge is the perfect way to learn how propane forges work and what size and shape will work for you. blacksmithing is a very individual craft, what works for me probably isn't going to be what works best for you. Sure we could work out of the other's forge but we work best in our own set ups. Remember Morgan Ceramics K-26 insulating fire brick is the best bang for the buck. It's max working temp rated as 2,600f, well into welding temp. It is resistant to caustics at temp such as borax based welding fluxes. It's concrete hard at 2,600f so it won't gouge or chip up easily. A coat of Plistex is another layer of armor that fires hard like a ceramic coffee mug and is rated to 3,000f and laughs at molten flux. Below is a pic of the clamped K-26 forges our club built in a forge and burner build clinic in 2019 IIRC. Most of the guys who built one did so as an entry level forge to see if they wanted to learn the craft. Quite a few wanted to make blades. There are a number of accomplished bladesmiths who haven't upgraded some make swords as bread and butter products. Pic below. This is about 5 minutes after lighting, it's one of 32 we built in 2 days. It's fired by a 1/2" T burner and is IIRC about 170 cu/in. I'd have to ask for a precise number. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 Steve Sells. Yes I'm aware of that, thank you. Cant i just plug the hole with ceramic wool? Thanks Frosty. I like the firebrick forge. The brick is more durable than the wool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 Are you going to rigidize the wool plug or just let the loose fibers get blown about with the air? A quick fix can have lasting health problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 Glenn, you're right. I wouldn't mind mounting the burners on the side i guess. I really want to avoid wool anyway, it scares me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USANewbie Posted October 24, 2021 Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 How far into the brick should my burner be placed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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